How it Works1 min ago
No Morals
Has this man no moral compass - what an insult to the Ukranians.
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Answers
If the British voters made the other decision ... nothing much would have happened. If the Ukrainian people make the wrong decision ... they will die, their families will die, their children will die. They will die in the most horrific way. To try to score Brexity points by making any comparison between the decisions facing these two groups of people is a...
21:18 Sun 20th Mar 2022
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What's the problem with it? It's a perfectly legitimate comparison. Brexit was about freedom from the EU's domination - carried out by red tape- and poor Ukraine is about freedom from domination carried out by bombs and bullets. The principle is the same - the ability to decide your own future and not be coerced by any foreign power.
Obviously JHB saying anything doesn't necessarily make it right, but the point is to illustrate that it's wrong to dismiss this as Remainer sour grapes or some such.
It's a comparison that leaves a lot to be desired, not least because -- again -- it's worth remembering that Ukraine wants to join the same organisation that was apparently "dominating" us. One therefore wonders what the point of mentioning it even was, since I'd have hoped that Johnson would have known that the two "struggles" were not remotely equal in scope.
It's frustrating, then, because it's just completely unnecessary; and it's equally sad to see so many people defending it, or even arguing that the comparison is completely legitimate, and dismissing critics with the usual, and completely meaningless at this point, 5C insult.
It's a comparison that leaves a lot to be desired, not least because -- again -- it's worth remembering that Ukraine wants to join the same organisation that was apparently "dominating" us. One therefore wonders what the point of mentioning it even was, since I'd have hoped that Johnson would have known that the two "struggles" were not remotely equal in scope.
It's frustrating, then, because it's just completely unnecessary; and it's equally sad to see so many people defending it, or even arguing that the comparison is completely legitimate, and dismissing critics with the usual, and completely meaningless at this point, 5C insult.
The other point, to jourdain's post in particular, is that "coercion" simply isn't right either, even if it is qualified by the different means. The UK freely chose to join the EU, freely chose to remain a part of it for 40 years, and then freely chose to leave it. Where then is the coercion in this chain of events? The EU never invaded us: we invited them in. Any extra "red tape" or whatever, however unwelcome it was to the 2016 majority, was consensual up until we left; and, granting that the Withdrawal Agreement may be unsatisfying, it was at least arrived at diplomatically, with both sides signing in good faith and without being under duress.
Therefore the comparison is flawed from the outset. At what point has Ukraine consented to anything that's happened to it, that Russia has imposed, in the last 30 years of its history outside the USSR? Certainly it didn't consent to the annexation of Crimea, nor the two breakaway Donbas regions, nor the invasion. The struggle for freedom, then, is completely different: at every stage there's been an imposition by a stronger "bully", enforced through arms and through callous disregard for human life. Should a peace deal be reached any time soon, it might even be that Ukraine is compelled to accept a substandard Treaty because the cost is measured, not in some abstract economic sense, but in the continued risk of horrific War Crimes perpetrated against its citizens.
As a final aside, I would hope that this would give those who described the EU as the "EUSSR" for the last several years at least some pause for thought. We've seen vividly how a totalitarian dictatorship behaves to those who don't want any part of it, and it makes such a label insulting in retrospect. We in the UK are privileged that our only recent "struggle" for "freedom" has come in the abstract sense, coming when we no longer desired to be a member of a supranational organisation that we had initially chosen to join.
Therefore the comparison is flawed from the outset. At what point has Ukraine consented to anything that's happened to it, that Russia has imposed, in the last 30 years of its history outside the USSR? Certainly it didn't consent to the annexation of Crimea, nor the two breakaway Donbas regions, nor the invasion. The struggle for freedom, then, is completely different: at every stage there's been an imposition by a stronger "bully", enforced through arms and through callous disregard for human life. Should a peace deal be reached any time soon, it might even be that Ukraine is compelled to accept a substandard Treaty because the cost is measured, not in some abstract economic sense, but in the continued risk of horrific War Crimes perpetrated against its citizens.
As a final aside, I would hope that this would give those who described the EU as the "EUSSR" for the last several years at least some pause for thought. We've seen vividly how a totalitarian dictatorship behaves to those who don't want any part of it, and it makes such a label insulting in retrospect. We in the UK are privileged that our only recent "struggle" for "freedom" has come in the abstract sense, coming when we no longer desired to be a member of a supranational organisation that we had initially chosen to join.
Words are never going to be a deterrent to Putin whoever shouts them. His answer will always be the same, more shelling, heaver shelling, increased killing.
It would however be a good idea if Biden and Boris didn't appear on the podium. One who stutters his way through, the other making silly remarks.
Sadly the latter must make Putin smile and give him the confidence to continue.
It would however be a good idea if Biden and Boris didn't appear on the podium. One who stutters his way through, the other making silly remarks.
Sadly the latter must make Putin smile and give him the confidence to continue.
The comparison Boris makes between the UK & Ukraine is that they both were/are desirous of being independent & free of dictatorial powers, nothing to do with the war, nothing more.
I can see that, why can't you? The liberal Left & remainers (including The Guardian) want to make some kind of political capital out of the bloodshed, it is they who are shameful not Boris.
I can see that, why can't you? The liberal Left & remainers (including The Guardian) want to make some kind of political capital out of the bloodshed, it is they who are shameful not Boris.
Khandro has stated the principle very simply at 12.52. Some of you are bringing extraneous ideas in. It matters not that we joined the EU freely, we were in the position of being forced to accept things we did not like. We were fortunate enough to be able, eventually, to leave. Ukraine is not so fortunate. Things it does not like are being forced on it, albeit in a different manner. That's all
Jim,//It's a comparison that leaves a lot to be desired, not least because -- again -- it's worth remembering that Ukraine wants to join the same organisation that was apparently "dominating" us. //
That's as far as I got with your posts because if you read what one or two of us said before you certainly didn't understand it. This isn't about the joining or leaving the EU. It's about a determination to be self-governing ... that's all.
That's as far as I got with your posts because if you read what one or two of us said before you certainly didn't understand it. This isn't about the joining or leaving the EU. It's about a determination to be self-governing ... that's all.
