Dog's dislike of certain other dogs.

[Bettypat]

My dog has made many doggie friends on her walks, but some dogs she seems to hate and when she sees them approaching she barks frantically and I have to hang on to her with all my strength. Is there any cure for this behaviour? She is lovely with all people. This appears to be her one vice. She is a rescue dog so I don't know if anything happened to her to cause this behaviour.

[Clanad]

In such encounters your dog is assuming (and you're allowing her) the pack leadership role. Notice the position of her tail and her general demeanor. It's likely her tail and the hair on her neck and back is raised and her head is up and alert. This is the position and actions of a pack leader and to correct it, you must re-assume the pack leader position. To do this, her leash should be attached to a collar that fits as high on her neck as possible, just behind the ears, rather than low near her chest. When she first exhibits such behavior, an authoritative "jerk" upward (not backward) will gain her attention on you, rather than the distraction of the other dog (this will not hurt her but snaps her out of her attention on the intruder and refocuses it on you). She is looking to you to be calm and assertive so she can be assured of safety in her 'pack'. Don't yell, don't bend down and speak directly into her face, don't hit her. Maintain an assetive 'body language' with shoulders back and head up and ignoring her other than the quick upward, forceful tug or jerk already mentioned. Make sure, during and before the encounter that she is at your side, slightly to the rear... deffinitely not out in front tugging on the leash. Dogs are looking for assertiveness as they would in the wild, but this is calmly provided primarily through body language of the human... Best of luck!

[Gill1234]

Im sorry but your answer is far from correct.

<In such encounters your dog is assuming (and you're allowing her) the pack leadership role>

This "leadership" stuff is rubbish and getting set in stone, which will be very damaging to pet dogs and their owners. Dogs DO NOT cross species in hierachy, you wont even find an alpha wolf deciding to be alpha in a wild dog pack - and both species are from the canid family. Being "alpha" or pack leader is about securing the gene pool and breeding rights. You are another animal species, you cannot be pack leader, it is about mutal respect for one another, not dominance.

<It's likely her tail and the hair on her neck and back is raised >

Classic fear behaviour.

<you must re-assume the pack leader position. To do this, her leash should be attached to a collar that fits as high on her neck as possible, just behind the ears, rather than low near her chest. When she first exhibits such behavior, an authoritative "jerk" upward (not backward) will gain her attention on you, rather than the distraction of the other dog (this will not hurt her but snaps her out of her attention on the intruder and refocuses it on you). >

Firstly how do you assertain this method is re-assuming pack leadership? How many alpha wolves or alpha canids do this to one another to re-establish pack leadership?
Secondly it could cause pain and damage I can assure you and have x rays of dogs neck and spinal cord that are seriously damaged by such methods.

Gill

[Gill1234]

Bettypat - you need to find out what sort of dogs she seems to hate. Colour/size/sex is all important. 90% of the time such dogs have had a bad experience with another dog and this has made them fearful of such and they start generalising. They cope by showing fear aggression - get in before they get me approach!
Commonly the other dog goes away and you the owner bring your dog away, so furthering the distnace of the other dog, which is exactly what your dog wants, it does not want to fight, it wants the other dog to get away.

Gill

[Clanad]

Gee... and here's me believing that "classic fear behavior" was always expressed by tail between the legs, slinking, rolling over submissive behavior. I understand the aversion to my suggested actions and one is free to use them or not. However, they are time tested and one only needs to watch the actions of the trainer/handler at a dog show to understand and view the dog's rapt attention on the handler. The handler/trainer also uses the collar/leash that I've suggested and holds it rather snugly with an occasional jerk to retain the attention of the dog in the face of all the distractions provided by the other dogs.

Being a pack leader is as much about directing the pack and leadership as it is about breeding rights. As for "securing the gene pool"... I doubt seriously that any dog (or other animal) has any concept of such goals. And, further, the pack leaders in the wild do use certain techniques to establish their dominance, such as grabbing with their mouth the recalictrant pack member by the skin of the neck, or if needed by the lower jaw when more force is required. Usually, no injury results, but it certainly refocuses the pack member's attention and reinforces the leadership role.
I've used this method for a number of years with several different breeds after being taught by my father who used the technique(s) for years. The biggest problem is not with the dog, but the dog's owner who insists that the dog is really a four legged human. They are not and they react and respond entirely outside of the human's expectations if those expectations are based on the humaness of their dog.

At any rate, good luck with your dog...

[Gill1234]

<Gee... and here's me believing that "classic fear behavior" was always expressed by tail between the legs, slinking, rolling over submissive behavior>

Great, glad Ive enlightened you then:-) You can add the other to the above as well now.

<However, they are time tested and one only needs to watch the actions of the trainer/handler at a dog show to understand and view the dog's rapt attention on the handler>

Im sure your right, if someone did this to me Id give them "rapt attention" as well - although they may have a few teeth missing by the end of the show!

<As for "securing the gene pool"... I doubt seriously that any dog (or other animal) has any concept of such goals. >

As the alpha female is the only one to come into season and give birth to pups within the pack, its all about securing the gene pool and making sure her litter survives. If food is scarce she will eat last, not first, to ensure they survive and continue her genes.
I cant beleive you said the above, thats incredible! So a human man & wife dont have this concept either? The wife can give birth to any other mans children and this is accepted?? hate to live in your world lol.

If you want to be scientifically correct you may want to read the following link.


http://www.dog-dominance.co.uk/

[Bettypat]

Thank you Gill1234 - I have looked at the link you suggest and will be sending for the booklet - I hope it will help. What you say makes sense to me. I would hate to do something which would hurt my dog. Thank you also Clanad for your views.

[kita1]

A good site for advice on dogs and training is: http://www.takingthelead.co.uk they have a forum where you can ask advice on this sort of problem. There is also lots of doggy information and articles.

[Gill1234]

Hi Bettypat,

The booklet was more of a suggestion for Clanad, as people on the internet and tv are going on so much about dominance and being the dogs pack leader and we have now found this to be scienctifically incorrect.

What might help you much more is a book called Click To Calm which can be purchased through Amazon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_/026-9 026094-6186865?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-ke ywords=click+to+calm.

You need to avoid other dogs for the time being, but dont feel that by avoiding them you are not dealing with the issue. The more your dog encounters such and barks frantically, the more entrenched and powerful this behaviour will become. It then becomes classically conditioned and is harder to fix. So avoid at present and get the book Click To Calm and follow through the advice to help your dog.

Gill

[Bettypat]

Thank you very much Gill, I will definitely take your advice and thank you for going to so much trouble on my behalf. I do try to avoid these encounters by taking the dog out at different times. The strange thing is that there are two almost identical dogs, black and white collies, and one she loves and the other she fears. Strange. At the other extreme she is absolutely besotted by a cream labrador. Her body quivers all over when she sees him and she drags me towards him and there are kisses exchanged. There is a black and white mongrel, and a black and white spaniel she hates, an all white dog and two other white mongrels,so it is difficult to pin it down.

[Bettypat]

Thank you Kital 1. This looks an interesting website and I will go back and have a second look. Many thanks.

[Bigeye74]

Gill, whats the issue with a sharp jerk upwards on the lead? What other action are you supposed to take? If I didn't do this my dog would pull me over (I weigh over 18st) how else do you get the dogs attention back?

[Clanad]

I would not like to remain involved in a basically emotion driven argument such as this... however, it's important, I believe, to state that success in 'dominance' driven techniques has proven successful. Again, I take my examples from my father... we are from the ranching country of the western U.S. and I grew up with him teaching me about horses as well as other animals. Long before Mr. Monty Roberts became successful with his book and later, the Robert Redford movie of the "Horse Whisperer", my dad had figured out there had to be a better way fo breaking and using horses than the physical violence often employed. His parallelled, almost exactly Roberts techniques as described by this brief quote "... Horses, either in the wild or tame, are very social creatures with extremely strong herd instincts. Their only means for survival is to stay close together so that every horse can be warned of the slightest impending danger. If they must fight back a predator, their strength is found in numbers. The horse's society is also built around a strict hierarchy. The leader of the herd, contrary to popular belief is not the stallion, but the eldest and strongest mare. This horse is called the head mare or "alpha mare" (Leatherman 2) The alpha mare is in charge of the herd will go to find food and water, and the discipline of the younger herd members.
Contd

[Clanad]

Contd
The worst form of punishment that the mare can use on an unruly horse, is to send it out away from the herd. All horses instinctively know that, if they are separated from the herd, their lives are in grave danger. This form of punishment is very effective and horses will quickly accept who the leader is.
Roberts observed carefully how the mare would send the horse away. She would take on an aggressive stance with shoulders square and eyes in contact with the other horse. The mare would continuce this action, keeping the distressed horse at a distance that was desirable to her. In time the mare would take on a passive stance, where she would drop her head close to the ground. This is the signal that the horse has served it's sentence and can return to the herd (Roberts 2).
Roberts discovered that the human body, eventhough very different from that of the horse, can be used to generate the same signals of that of a dominant mare, or any other horse for that matter.He uses this to "train young unbroken horses to accept, saddle, bridle and rider without inflicting the slightest pain" (Marsh 1). Monty has named this silent language of signals and gestures "Equus".

This is precisely the techniques used in 'pack leader' establishment used for dogs... if it's not your cup of tea... fine... but it does work if applied correctly and consistently. The reason cats can't be trained using the same approach is because they are not 'pack' animals... Best of luck with your pet....

[Bettypat]

Thanks for that, Clanad.

[Gill1234]

<I would not like to remain involved in a basically emotion driven argument such as this>

Nothing emotionally driven on my part - just proven scientific facts.

<The worst form of punishment that the mare can use on an unruly horse, is to send it out away from the herd. All horses instinctively know that, if they are separated from the herd, their lives are in grave danger. This form of punishment is very effective and horses will quickly accept who the leader is.>

You are now talking about horses, a prey animal, unlike dogs a predator. Yes I agree with the above statement you have written, but YOU are not a horse, the mare you describe is.


<He uses this to "train young unbroken horses to accept, saddle, bridle and rider without inflicting the slightest pain>

Now here is were it gets interesting. In the animal world I guess we have evolved a little, although we still want everying on our terms. We can look at the old way they use to break horses in or the old way they displined dogs, which was physical. Now we do the dominance rubbish and think this is kinder and causes no pain - what about emotional pain then? To, as you describe, drive a horse a way, it is so desperate to be in a group it would "join" with anything if this made it feel safe.

What you have got wrong here is that yes there is a hierachly structure - but these animals do not cross species in this - can you imagine the mayhem on the Africian Plains if every pack/herd species crossed over in such a way!

Bigeye <Gill, whats the issue with a sharp jerk upwards on the lead? What other action are you supposed to take? If I didn't do this my dog would pull me over (I weigh over 18st) how else do you get the dogs attention back? >

Using Positive reinforcement with ease.

Gill

[kita1]

Like Gill says horses are prey, or flight animals. Dogs (and cats) are predators and have a totally different 'drive' and way of thinking.

I know there are many people in the horse world who still disagree with Mr. Roberts (I have attended a demonstration in the UK) and many would argue that the way horses were 'broken' for hundreds of years was the right way (after all it worked did it not?). Whips are still used in horse racing even though Mr. Roberts has proved that they are not needed! Obviously some jockeys still think they work! Barbara Woodhouse used choke chains on dogs and swore by them, they worked for her (no I am NOT saying use them).

Just because some things appear to work for many years it does not mean there is not a better, kinder and easier way. One thing I was always taught by an old teacher is that a good teacher never stops learning.

If cats are not pack animals how do you explain a pride of lions? My next door neighbour had 14 cats in the house what were they?

[Clanad]

Somehow, this simple question by Bettypat devolved into "nyah, nyah, mine's better than your's!"... At no time have I questioned or derided any other method of humane techniques to produce wanted results in any pet. It is important, however, that if, by "scientifically correct" one means the standard process of observation, recordation, experimentation and validiation, then either method fills those requisites. There's no arguing that both approaches can work. In fact the only time I've seen the "pack leader dominance, submissive" procedure fail is when, after the animal is returned or re-incorporated into it's family, the owner(s) continue to treat the dog as a small, four-legged human. I'm sure the reward methods produce results, but even proponents of that avenue will caution about the actions of the owners.
As pertains to the "gene pool"... I'm sure the male and female dogs, after copulation, light a cigarette and exclaim to each other that the "gene pool' is now secure. Point is, animals (even humans) don't think and act under such protocols. The four legged variety, especially dogs, react to smells, some sight, some taste, but are driven only by instincts... that is scientifically validated.
I'd agree that among almost all cats, lions do engage in "pack" behavior, but they are singular among the species, and I think, validating my point. Even in their case, they exhibit the same behavior as other species.
Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.
Granted horses are not predators, but what does that have to do with the discussion? They react in their internal invironment with each other primarily the same as do the canids. The discussion has nothing to do with each's behavior with their external environment.

What would I call a neighbor with 13 cats? A health hazard, first and the SPCA secondly. If you were to apply the "scientific" method to that feline flock, you would see no hierarchical separation. All females would come into estrus each month and they would breed with the first available male... in my opinion, spaying and castration excepted...

Any way, I'm certain Bettypat has long since grown weary of yet another notification in her e-mail of progressive thread creep.

I sincerely hope, however you accomplish it, that you have a satisfactory outcome for both your pet and you. I apologize for any unintended controversey.

[Bettypat]

Don't apologise Clanad, I am finding all points of view extremely interesting. It has made me think a lot and today when Charlie saw one of her "enimies" about 200 yards in front of her she started to bristle up and I said to her very calmly, "let's wait until he has gone." She stood by my side and waited until he was out of site and then quietly profceeded on her journey. She seems O.K. if the other dog has not seen her and eyeballed her. She late came across two bassets, and she was about to start barking when one of them looked at her and gave a friendly bark and she was O.k. Perhaps I am sending out different signals, who knows.

[Gill1234]

<Somehow, this simple question by Bettypat devolved into "nyah, nyah, mine's better than your's>

Not at all, it is just this "pack leadership" stuff is becoming set in stone on the internet due to a flawed study on capitive wolves. Once the study was repeated in natural enviroment, it was realised how flawed it was, the trouble is the scienctific FACTS do not filter down to the pet dog owning public.
I take it you never bothered to ready the link I put up for you. But if you wish to ask me anymore questions or discuss further please feel free to open another topic on the subject as you do not feel you are upsetting Bettypat.

<Granted horses are not predators, but what does that have to do with the discussion?>

Quite a lot actually, they live in Herds for safety, predators form packs for success in hunting. Both species have different behaviours, different evolution - you cannot treat different species with the same theory of pack leadership, in fact you shouldn't even treat the same species that way, they are individuals like you and I.

Gill