UK Fox kills

[eifionlewis]

Does anyone know how plausible it is that a fox in the UK would be able to perform an efficient kill on a farmed sheep? By efficient I mean making the kill without getting injured to the extent that it may be disabled, as i know that in a panic an adult sheep could easily kill a fox as it is much smaller.

[Illyria54]

I have never heard of a fox killing an adult sheep, it is usually lambs that get taken, a fox will often get attracted to the afterbirth as well which could lead to it killing a lamb at that vulnerable time.

[eifionlewis]

Thanks, I am asking because i'm trying to look objectively at the so called 'big cat' kills in the UK. Although I think it is entirely possible that there are some big cats out there, the evidence is sketchy at best and i'm trying to look at other causes for the kills

[Illyria54]

If I had known that, I could have told you that 4 years ago I was out with my 3 dogs and all of a sudden they started making a right commotion and I looked up (and I kid you not) and about 50 feet in front of us was a black cat about the size of one of my German Shepherds, it was pure black with a very long smooth tail, it was about 6 in the morning in the Summer, I know I didn't imagine it, and I don't drink so I know also that I didn't have a hangover and was seeing things, I do know that later in the day there were a lot of low flying helicopters, were they perhaps looking for it after more sightings??

[Cetti]

It's possible, but highly unlikely that a fox would even go after a sheep, let alone kill it. It would have to be very sick or old or stupid - and to be all three is not good odds.

The big cat idea is certainly the best bet as they have been seen in so many places, especially in my area of Dorset where there are still huge tracts of scrub and bushes and no one ever goes there.

My son and his friend found a stripped deer carcass fairly recently with very large teeth marks - so yes, escaped cats, certainly get my vote, eifionlewis.

[burnhal]

Sounds like this is an interesting one. I guess a lot of sheep kills may be down to dogs- but maybe you can point us in the direction to read up on big-cat kills or perhaps write down one or two here? Certainly a fox has next to no chance. I would like to believe that there is big cats living wild but why has no-one ever produced a good photo? I suppose if confronted it may well be the last thing on your mind. And what type of cats? Do you reckon there enough to form a breeding population?

[.steg.]

i have never heard of a fox killing an adult sheep

I watched a documentary about a year or so ago about big/wild cats in England. They got a famous tracker and cat expert from America over. He looked at photos of kills went to fresh kills went to sightings tried looking for tracks in areas etc.
His conclusion was he never seen any evidence at all that there were wild cats running lose in England

[eifionlewis]

Thanks guys, I am fairly convinced that there are some big cats out there, as there were many owned as exotic pets in the UK before licencing laws came in, after which most mysteriously disappeared. The main theory is that they were simply released into the wild, or kept illegally and they escaped, with the owners unable to report them missing due to their illegality.

Dogs are a possibility, however generally I think most domestic dogs would have trouble tackling a sheep, as they can thrash about and would give a nasty kick/headbutt that could fracture the skull. As I thought, the fox can be ruled out and there seems to be no natural predators in the UK that could do such horrific damage to sheep and deer. One thing that baffles me though is that alot of the sheep found are only half eaten, whereas a big cat trying to keep a low profile would surely want to make each kill count, as the more kills it makes the more chance there is of being seen.

There is a good possibility that breeding pairs could have formed, big cats are supreme survivors, if they don't want to be found they won't be... I believe this is the reason for the lack of formal evidence.

http://www.ukbigcats.co.uk/photographic.asp has good photos..... the Telford brickyard one is particularly convincing.... the long balanced tail and low profile is classic of a panther - the so-called ninja of the big cats, but the lack of a scale reference is always frustrating :o(

[Noweia]

A fox would not be able to tackle a healthy adult sheep. They certainly take lambs though, and perhaps will chance a nip at a sick ewe, or recently dead one.

As for big cats, I believe that it is a possibility for large felids to be loose in the UK, but I also agree with what .steg. said - that a big cat tracker failed to find any evidence of them over here. Most 'kills' are dead animals that have been scavenged.

And unfortunately, to me the Telford cat looks like a black moggy. The proportions are wrong for a leopard-type creature.

[eifionlewis]

As i say, a scale is desperately needed! there are 2 things that stand out, which is the tail is proportionately longer than a moggy, and also there is a low profile that moggies would usually use for stalking.... which they wouldn't usually be doing out in the open like that, they'd most likely be under some cover.

I agree with what you say though, it could well be a donestic cat, but that's the problem with cats.... depending on their physical conditioning, only size differenciates them at a distance.

[eifionlewis]

(and maybe colour)

[Goodsoulette]

eifion, Sheep are a bit stupid and I am not sure they could kill a fox in a panic, but being a farmers daughter and speaking to may family friends that live on the hills round here, I am without a doubt that there are big cats here. I have seen the left overs of a deer that has been attacked and I fail to believe that it could be anything else. On the blackdowns in Somerset there is a panther type cat and nearer the town are smaller cats, possibly a lynx.

My mums sheep cant fight off a crow, falls over onto its back, which they do easily on flat ground and drows peck its eyes out. I cant imagine they do well against a fox. A fox would be capable of killing a lamb.

[gelda]

We had a lynx living in our local wood for about 3 years, dozens of walkers saw it but didn't report it because it wasn't doing any harm quite tame in fact and if it had been reported it would probably have been shot and we all became used to it being around, it disappeared one day and hasn't been seen since. And before anyone says it was a big domestic cat no way They are quite different.

[Billy Reid S]

I had a friend who in the 60 and 70s was gamekeeper on an estate in Southern Scotland. He showed me photo's of
a puma walking on the parapet of a bridge which I have crossed myself many times. Although the photo was in black and white, there is no doubt in my mind what it was
or where the photo was taken.
He (my friend) was told by the landowner to destroy the photo's and not speak to anyone as it would attract to many
sightseers onto the estate. My friend was one of the most level headed blokes you could ever meet

[.steg.]

and there has been hundreds of eyewitneses to the lochness monster. but does that exist

[Noweia]

Telford cat - the head is too small and the tail too short to be a big cat. It has the proportions of a domestic cat. I'm familiar with both big and small cats (have worked with both) and I stand my ground that the pictures show a small animal.

Kills are hard to verify - I see a lot of carcasses where I work and scavenging by foxes, bird of prey and rats can look like the work of a large animal.

[Kleiber]

Hmmm - interesting debate. Eifion, I'm guessing you live in Wales (your name kinda gives it away...but I may be wrong!). I live in West Wales and there are a lot of rumours around about big cats - a woman only 9 miles from here reported what looked like a big cat kill on a couple of goats last year. Must admit, a cat could live here for years and not be spotted by anyone, but I think most of the damage people see to sheep is done by dogs. I've seen what a dog can do (to my sheep and my neighbour's) and it's not pretty. Also, as someone else mentioned, surely a cat would take its kill away to eat it - a domestic dog just does the damage and then leaves the victim. A big cat will usually kill by suffocation, holding the prey's throat in its jaws, but most dogs are unable to kill this way (although some big wolves can) and so usually go for the hindquarters first. In a dog attack on a sheep, most of the damage initially is around the hindquarters and it's only after the animal is dead that the rest will be eaten, if the dog hasn't been disturbed (or shot by the farmer!!). Some sheep will stand up to a dog and if there's a ram in with them and it's only a small dog (or in my old ram's case, any dog will do!), then heaven help the dog. I've seen foxes trot through my sheep's field and they haven't bothered too much, but when they've got lambs, the ewes will put themselves between the fox and the lambs to protect them.

[Kleiber]

Further to my last post, what you said about a sheep thrashing about and possibly hurting a dog isn't usual. Sheep panic when chased and if the dog were to get hold of the sheep, it just sort of gives up in most cases. I've got an old ewe, who'll face down a dog if it comes at her from the front (she'll even head-butt it), but she was attacked about 3 years ago and she just stood there, while the dog was trying to eat her alive! Once the sheep is down, the dog can virtually do what it likes and the sheep won't do anything.