You learn something new every day...

[slinkycat]

Was going to get my 6 month old pup neutered in the next couple of weeks. Didn't see any reason not to and the vet said it could be done from 5 months. Then I came across a paragraph in a very good book I've been using for training advice,
"It is my experience that, at whatever age the dog is when he is castrated, the mental maturing process tends to stop once the castration is done. You could therefore have a four month old puppy castrated and for example at two years old he would still have the mental age of a four month old puppy"
I googled to see if anyone else had this opinion and it seems to be widely held and backed by evidence.
Have decided to wait until he is at least a year old. No advice needed, and apologies to all the dog owners who already knew this, but as a new dog owner I found it interesting!
(and wish my vet had mentioned it!)

[Hopkirk]

I know with our cat we were told that the later it is done, the more distressing and invasive the surgery is to the animal.

[slinkycat]

Why would it be more invasive? surely the cat's bits aren't going to be any harder to get to whether its 6 months or 6 years old?

[tamborine]

cruel.....to leave it when its mature. As Hopkirk says, it would take a lot of recovery and you could lose the trust of your pet.

[slinkycat]

Why on earth would it be cruel? surely it would be more cruel to retard the puppy's mental growth? Also testosterone is linked to the growth of the puppies bones, and apparently early neutering can affect proper growth of the bones.

[daffy654]

Why don't you ask the advice of your vet? Trusting stuff you read in a book or on the internet above the advice of a trained vet seems a bit silly to me.

[tamborine]

most livestock & colts are gelded at 12weeks or less and it doesn't affect their development; in cattle it enhances their growth. If an animal needs it then its best done early for a better chance of recovery.

[slinkycat]

I might ask for a second opinion Daffy! I'm not in any rush to get him done now. my vet said it was ok from 5 months, but after reading this, on reputable websites, and from a trainer with years of experience, I am questioning the need to get it done so early.

[woofgang]

to toss in my 2 pence worth, ours were done at about 14 months. We hadn't planned to but the male hormones were kicking in and life was getting....well difficult is an understatement!! They are now coming up for 3 and in the last six months have definitely matured mentally and calmed down. They aren't flat or dull, just adult, more able to concentrate, calmer with strangers, still loving , still playful but they have matured just as if they hadn't been neutered, and I have had entire male dogs so I can compare. Because we didn't plan to have them done at all, and didn't really want to, we did our research including talking to the vet. Physically the op is a lesser one when the dog is young, smaller incision etcet because (look away now boys) the testicular matter is smaller and less solid and can be squeezed through a smaller hole. There can be a problem with the long bones fusing later resulting in a taller dog but it is very very very rare for this to cause a problem for the dog or owner.

I would be interested to see the research you found, as I only know of one validated research that on balance comes down against neutering on the grounds of physical (not mental) disadvantages but even that states that its a finely balanced call.
There are some pieces on the net that I found that have been written in the US that purport to be research based but in fact are not and if the citations are followed lead back to one website to a guy who trains security dogs whose opinion (not evidence based) is that entire males are more aggressive therefore more suited to protection work.
again, would you mind posting links to the research please?

[slinkycat]

Hi woofgang should have saved the pages! Looked at so many, mainly breed specific forums, but they all seemed to suggest the same thing, which as I say, made me question the need to get him "done" quite so early.
He's fine at the moment, and barring "life getting difficult" as you say, I don't see any reason now to rush things. Its reassurring that yours were 14 months old before they went for the snip. did they cope ok with it?

[woofgang]

so did you find real evidence or folks' opinions on forums?
I seriously have seen no evidence of the mental maturing process being stopped in my two. Can I ask which book you have been using and who its by? I am always interested in reading about dog training....
My "in theory" view is that i would never put any of my pets through a surgical procedure that wasn't necessary. If a male dog isn't going to be allowed to mate on a regular basis, however, it seems to me to be unkind and risky, especially in todays Dangerous Dogs Act world, to leave him with those drives intact and no way of fulfilling them. Its many years since we had an entire male dog (about 17, weimaraners are a long lived breed and we had a bitch after him) and the world was a different place then, also he was very easy going, not especially testosterone driven. Even he, however was castrated aged 12 because he got prostate trouble...again no problem, fast recovery and no change of character.
I do think that castration age depends a bit on breed, small dogs mature earlier that big ones and are capable of breeding earlier...so a bit of the answer about when depends on why you want it done.
I would always spay a bitch unless I wanted to breed her (and before readers think of gender prejudice, i am female) I think that they can have a better life if they aren't having to be kept indoors or at least out of the way of other dogs for around a month a year, also pyometra is a risk, especially if allowed near other dogs when in season as the interest in the rear end is one of the ways that infection is passed.
there is a growing trend in the purebred cat world to neuter kittens young, even before they go to their forever homes, and there doesn't seem to be any problem either mental or physical with that. In the US, the law in some states means that shelters i are having to neuter pups before rehoming so that can mean at 8 weeks. empirically that doesn't seem to be causi

[woofgang]

got cut off with no warning...meant to say causing problems...would still ike to see any pages you can remember or any forums you can remember looking on pls?

[kat1]

We have our kittens done at 6 weeks at out cat resue centre which is quite young & only one vet will do it. Some do end up as smaller than average cats.

[woofgang]

kat, not to be picky but have you got any evidence to show that those smaller than average cats wouldn't have ended up as smaller than average anyway?

[rowanwitch]

Can't see how castration could stop a mental maturation process as brain development results from interaction with the environment and a dog doesn't need nuts for that to happen.....Personally I believe all dogs and cats that won't be used for breeding should be neutered to prevent unwanted litters...Might I suggest the breeders association for whatever dog you have as a source of advice... or the closest match for a cross-breed.

[woofgang]

RW. there is evidence (will hunt it out) that brain, and therefore mental, development requires chemicals and hormones too as well as environmental stimulation. I would look at breed specific organisations, yes, but they too will have an agenda regarding neutering and its worth understanding what that agenda is when looking at opinions/ advice offered...not saying that it is wrong for those organisations to have an agenda regarding advice offered but should be aware that they have and what it is.

[woofgang]

It is perfectly possible to prevent unwanted litters by managing the animal...sometimes the animal will be happy with that, like our easy going boy, sometimes not.

[jomifl]

I have had 2 entire male dogs, one a collie and the other a german shepherd. Neither were aggressive. To neuter male dogs to prevent other female dogs becoming pregnant is a ridiculous notion as I presume dogs aren't left to roam around and copulate at will. A lot of dog aggression is picked up from the dog's owner.

[woofgang]

jomifl I wasn't talking about aggression I was talking about constant fascination with bitches, with the scent of where they had been, running off on their scent regardless of roads, people, cars and being a total pest around the owners of bitches. Yes, They might have grown out of it, but to what end?

[kita1]

One study here:

http://www.naiaonline...fSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

[kita1]

Another one saying the opposite:

http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm