Bouncers!!

[paulakea]

Does anyone know what rights we have over violence from bouncers? Are they allowed to physically hurt someone? I know they are there to stop fighting, drugs etc but are they allowed to cause harm to someone when unneccesary??

[Scarlett]

NO they are only allowed to restrain people. Sounds like your bouncer is letting his position go to his head. Report him to his boss.

[Siamsal]

They certainly are not. The occupation is strictly licenced and regulated now, and if they have gone 'over the top' they could be in big trouble - lose their licence - lose their job.

As Scarlett says, in the first instance report them to their boss. If you don't fancy this, or get no satisfaction, go to the licencing authority, which is usually the district council (I believe).

[4getmenot]

No we went to the police once when my mate was dragged down a flight of stairs by his hair and when he got to the door he went back to retrieve a big lump of hair that had been ripped out.

[paulakea]

The situation is this - my bf was short changed by �1 (i know its a small amount but its besides the point!), he asked for it back immediately, raised his voice and eventually got it back.
We sat down 20 mins later 2 bouncers came , one got him by the legs and feet and the other got him in a headlock , carried him to the door and threw him out and proceeded to push me out too.
My bf has a very bad bruised neck, it is red raw and he is having difficulty moving it.
What do you think??

[4getmenot]

go see the boss. I'm sure he should have all evidence on CCTV. If what you say is the true story then they treated him very unfairly.

[enigma]

I can see it from both sides here to be fair. Having worked behind the bar in pubs and nightclubs , I can tell you that I have seen some pretty vicious attacks on the poor bouncers. They have a difficult job to do keeping order in a club but very often end up getting hurt a lot of the time. Without wishing to sound accusatory here , you said that your boyfriend "Raise his voice" to get his money back. How loudly ? It may be that the member of staff whom he spoke to like that felt intimidated and reported him to the bouncers to be removed. I wasn't there so I can't comment on the version of events but I can tell you that I have witnessed many times , bouncers asking someone to leave , they refuse because they have paid money to get in and get stroppy and when the bouncers lift them to remove them, they lay the boot in and start swinging about wildly to protest at being removed. That's why they do not go solo to remove someone. I'm not suggesting that this is the case with your boyfriend however.

Did they ask him to leave first before lifting him to remove him ? If they did and he refused and/or was becoming argumentative about it , then they are within their rights to remove him with reasonable force but if they just marched over to him and grabbed him , then that is excessive and you should definitely report it. I wouldn't bother going to his boss though to be honest because it would most likely get swept under the carpet. They all tend to stick together. I would report it to the club owners because they would not want to get a bad reputation and may consider rethinking their security if it was to be an ongoing issue. The owner would have a serious talk with the head bouncer rather than him just letting it slide.

[paulakea]

He raised his voice over the bar noise and said he wasnt moving untill he got his money - he was within his rights and the barman did not look threatened - he wasnt anyway.
The bouncers said 'you need to leave' my bf said 'i will go just let me look after my gf' as i knew no one and had not been there before. he wouldve just walked out with no hassle they just enjoyed doing what they did.
If the braman was upset in anyway it would have been nice for the bouncers to say 'can you tell us ehat happened'
no need at all for violence.

[Sparky1979]

I am a doorman on weekends and i agree with 'enigma'. If it did happen the way you describe, you should contact the club/pub owner to collect the details of the doormen and then contact the police and SIA (security industry authority).

Doorstaff are there for your safety, not the other way around.

[saxy_jag]

It comes down to the whole 'reasonable force' thing. The bouncers I've known and worked with have been properly trained and qualified. They will tell you that their job is to ensure the safety and welfare of the customers, and to ensure that they (the customers) have an enjoyable time at the venue. This can't happen in an atmosphere of violence and fear. Any bouncer that tells you otherwise isn't fit to be in the job.

Anyone with drugs, who's drunk or causing any sort of trouble should be asked politely to either cease the offending behaviour or leave the venue. If they persist, then at least two bouncers will take steps to eject or restrain them. I have seen bouncers using varying amounts of force to do this, sometimes in relatively secluded areas (this was at a music festival), but at no time have I witnessed any of them 'put the boot in' as it were. As enigma pointed out, they are advised not to deal with people single-handed, for physical and legal safety.

There are those who go over the top and get carried away. The job does hold a certain amount of power and some will make the most of it. Again, any establishment that employs people of that ilk should either deal with them (by dismissal or 'training') or shouldn't be patronised.

If your bf feels he wasn't being overly agressive and that he really was being unfairly treated, then he should complain to management. In the venue I work at sometimes, if security are reported as being overzealous then it's investigated and dealt with. Also, all staff are expected to report such behavour. They really do want people to have a good time there and take great pains to keep security low-key but still effective. That's a very fine line to tread and they occasionally fall off, but they're working very hard on it.

[Carakeel]

Sparky is absolutely right. I would just ad though that your bf should go to a doctor so that any injury is recorded. Also take a photo. Just to get a clear picture of the events - how much had you both had to drink at the time? People who have had a few drinks rarely see things as they actually occurred the next day. I am not saying this is the case with you, just asking. Like Sparky I think there are two sides to every story. A trained, licenced doorman will not usually remove someone without a fairly good reason. Either way, you should talk to the bar owner and let him sort this out.

[paulakea]

We had had 2 drinks, so it was as clear as mud!
They did not have good reason to attack my bf like that at all!!
Honeslty...scared for his life i was :-(

[enigma]

If your boyfriend calmly tried to reason with the door staff that he was worried about your safety and asked if he could collect you to leave , then they could have walked with him to collect you and escorted you both to the door. If however , he took an argumentative stance with them and became hostile , then they were perfectly justified in removing him. They have to consider the safety of everyone else and if someone is becoming hostile , then they need to remove them from the situation before the problem escalates.

[enigma]

People don't realise the crap bar staff and door staff have to take sometimes unless they have worked in a pub/club. I've had a lot of fun doing bar work but I have also had some sticky situations too. I have had ice and coins thrown at me (as well as the other bar staff) on busy nights by disgruntled customers who felt that they had waited too long to be served and have had the odd occasion when I have been roared at by someone who thought that I had short changed them. We always checked every note which we put in the till with other bar staff and yet we still got acused sometimes. Mistakes happen though - especially when busy - so if the matter was resolved without a problem , then it would seem excessive. The onlt time I have seen door staff get someone in a headlock was to restrain them because they were lashing out and it was to prevent them from injuring door staff , other clubbers or even from causing themself an injury. They are allowed to use reasonably force but the emphasis here is on 'reasonable'. Yes , some abuse it and go an an almighty power trip and these ones need to be weeded out as they give the club a bad name and are an insult to the hard working door staff who do a good job in keeping order. They do not need to take you to one side however to get an account of events.

If you feel that your boyfriend was mistreated , then you have been given good advice by Sparky on who to copmplain to.

[paulakea]

Thanks for all your answers enigma! I understand all you are saying and understand the need for bouncers....of course.
But my bf was in no way hostile to the bouncers, did not argue, shout, lash out or become agressive in anyway whatsoever. He would have quite happily left to avoid any problems but he just wanted to look after me...thats all. The bouncers caused the scene, we were just sat there having a good night, there was no need in any way!

[enigma]

I wasn't having a go at you or your boyfriend Paulakea. I was only trying to see it from both sides. I have said much the same as what Sexy_Jag and Carakeel have said. From my experience , door staff do not like having to forcibly remove someone and only do so as a last resort. Especially in the way which you mentioned - in a headlock. It reflects badly on the club to cause such a scene but sadly some rogue door staff go on a power trip and the way to have them weeded out is to report them.

It does seem odd though for them to just grab him for no reason and put him in a headlock. This usually suggests that some sort of struggle has taken place and that the person was refusing to leave and you already said that your boyfriend DID refuse. You asked what people thought and I told you. If he was being argumentative then they had the right to remove him by reasonable force. If they overstepped the mark , then they should be reported. As I was not a witness to it , then I can only look at the situation objectively and try to see both sides.

If the club has cctv cameras , then you will be able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there was no wrong doing on your boyfriend's part. If not , then you will need to rely on witness statements. Does your boyfriend know anyone who was there who could vouch for him ? You have been given advice by Sparky on who to complain to. If your boyfriend was hurt as a result of being removed excessively then report it.

[Kate77]

No comment.
I was out on Friday and had some drinks beforehand, I was merry but not tipsy and I got the the club we were all going in for a friends birthday and as i went to go in the bouncer said "can you step aside please". never in my whole life (ok maybe once about 8 years ago) has this happend to me. I wasnt abusive and we pleaded but he still wouldnt let me in.
I think there are some great bouncers out there or door attendants but that doesnt sound macho does it! But some do think they are the best people in the world like my friend says What is the difference between God and a Bouncer?
God doesnt think he's a bouncer!
I was upset more because we couldnt go into the club for my friends birthday - it was just after 12 so maybe the bouncer was just making sure it didnt get too packed but there was no way I did anything wrong.
So now I have had my rant (10th one of the day)
Us humans probably have no right against violence from bouncers.
No one in society has the right to harm another person, unless self defence. Bouncers may hurt others through restraining them etc
Boo to the bouncers
Boo to the bouncers
It would be dead funny if it was the same place we got harassed at! I was out in Essex so maybe I was asking for it, never have any trouble in London.

[Octavius]

Even with CCTV I doubt you would have much of a case as it is likely they will say that your bf was being abusive/difficult to the extent that required forceful removal. Your word against theirs really. Anyway, some info here:

http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/law/you rrights/bouncersandthelaw