Why???

[###w-m###]

I have just had a huge row with what I thought was a friend. Basically he has booked a trip on an African safari whereby he will be hunting elephants, lions and other beautiful creatures. Obviously, it will not be on protected reserves and the company state they will only kill elderly animals or "the alpha male" so the herd/pack etc will thrive to populate. Also they are stating that hunting is good for the environment as it ironically assists the eco-system.

Now, as you may know I am an animal lover but I do hunt. However, I vehemently maintain that I have never killed anything I or a colleague would not eat. I have shot a few dears, and to be honest i was a little upset as they too are majestic animals. However, it was on land where they are bred for meat, and I am not a vegetarian. Likewise, venison is lovely and I am a crack shot so the animals did not suffer.

I will state, I am anti-snare traps and baiting. And fox-hunters can rot in hell as far as I am concerned.

So my long-winded point is, how can I convince my "friend" that this �7000 safari hunt is morally wrong. Also how can anybody enjoy shooting a giraffe or a lion for mere pleasure?

I shall not post a link but if you put in safari hunt in google images you will see beautiful animals slain being exhibited after.

let the animals roam free and wild.

Convince me otherwise.

[sako 243]

w-m.you have to remember what sport you enjoy is as barbaric to many as your friends safari is to you.i have shot and snared for vermin control and sport all my life and know how lots of people view it.luckily i stay in rural scotland and the vast majority of people here realise that some animals need to be balanced to the good of some others as most land is farmland.as for the safari.i myself very nearly booked one last year and it was more the expense that made my mind up.all these animals are controled,not "slain" as you state.if thats the case everything you shoot is "slain".the elephants are usually older animals that are nearing the end of their lives and it is a way of getting much needed income into very poor countries.it is much the same as our estates take over visitors to shoot our roe,red,fallow deer,grouse, and pheasants.all of whitch are also beautiful creatures.i have seen many photos of people,not just fat americans smiling for the camera after shootong an animal but have never seen them with "evil"grins on their face.

[kwicky]

I think you will find that animals are more protected in Africa than you imagine. The fact that ivory poaching is illegal to protect the elephants. The same can be said for many other species.

[###w-m###]

sako, I thank you for your honest and eloquent reply but must profess I disagree.

Firstly, the economy of Africa should not be propped up by hunting safaris. This is, in my opinion, the same as saying the economy of Thailand is propped up by the sex industry (which it is). Morality should overstep economics.

Secondly, as we both have stated, they target the older animals. How is this justification? Surely, it is these animals that the natural predator (i.e big cats etc) would hunt in the first place for their own eco-survival?

Thirdly, I have painfully examined the google images and I have to admit the vast majority are fat Americans.

Also, can you answer my question. Where is the pleasure in killing a giraffe? A human will a gun can anything. It is not sport is it? A leopard will run 60mph a bullet travels at 2100 mph, who will win?

[fat rascal]

just cannot see why anyone would want to go on such a "safari".. horrible

[curlyfilm]

why dont you susggest that he goes to the american mid west, and shoot some fat, aged, americans, i'm sure they would look good stuffed, by the fire

[snagged]

Wardy, having just re-read your initial post, I don't think there is a way you can convince your friend that what he is doing is 'morally' wrong... if he is a person of even 'average' intelligence, he already knows that what he is planning on doing is wrong - but he has made the decision to do it anyway for his own gratification... he obviously feels he can live happily with that decision so will not change his mind/views... proven by the fact that you both had a huge row...

[luckyeight]

This 7K safari -slaughter holiday sounds horrible to me. But as a hunter, I don't understand what you're getting your knickers in a twist about... Why don't you just suggest to your friend that he eats some of the animal he shoots, then you can put your mind at rest. It's the oddest pro/anti hunting moral dilemma I've ever read! 'Death to the safari organisers'? Take it you'd eat them, then. Strange. For the record, you don't need to eat meat to be healthy. You can be in optimum prime health as a vegetarian or indeed vegan.
And what's the difference between a fat American with a grin on their faces, and your 'slightly upset' demeanour after you've killed a 'majestic animal'? You've both killed an animal for your own satisfaction. There's no difference, really, between you and your friend. You justify your killing, and he morally reconciles his - old animals, cycle of nature etc. You're the same!

[###w-m###]

You may be right snagged. He is as stubborn as a mule.

Truth and morality will shine through in the end.

[noxlumos]

Tell him to go on an actor hunting safari in Malibu wardy instead, special favour for me :)

[###w-m###]

lucky, look at the photo I have posted. tell me how is this the same as killing a quail for my sunday roast. Come on please.

Also, I know you have read my posts, I have stated it is my opinion that meat is healthy. That is a separate debate really.

All I will say is can you name a sportsperson who is a vegetarian? I can't.

[###w-m###]

Noxy dear chap, can you elaborate further please?

[###w-m###]

http://www.hunt-africa.com/images/botswana_ove rview_image.jpg

For lucky (sorry forgot to post)

Not pretty. Beware.

[curlyfilm]

was the large breasted variety you were hunting nox, i'm sure thats a form of hunting known as stalking.........lol

[sako 243]

w-m.the more i see your posts i think you are taking the p*ss.for yourself to go to a deer farm where the"dears"are enclosed and justify it by saying you ate it is laughable.to say that africas economy should not be propped up by using their natural resources intelligently when ours is propped up by revenue from a drug that kills thousands every year is also hard to understand.the uk takes in lots of millions every year through shooting so surely we are as bad.

[sako 243]

also the leopard does 60mph and the deer you shot does about half that so where is the sport in shooting it with a bullet that does 2100.indeed,who will win?

[###w-m###]

sako, two things.

1) Don't question typos in an adult debate, Africa (A) is capitalised (see how silly it looks.

2) Have you actually read my posts? Where have I said, I shoot for pleasure or sport? I shoot to eat and that is it. Is it really that hard to comprehend? I take no pleasure in the kill and have even admitted shooting deer upset me.

3) What drug are you going on about. I really do not understand.

[whiffey]

sako, the whole damn thread is an invention. A languid country gentleman, Bentley in the yard, peasants to clean it, idle shooting expeditions....Horror-struck with the cruelty and lack of sportsmanship.

Or maybe xollob from a tacky bedsit, value chicken breasts from the supermarket, those that are killed by electrocution in huge waterbaths.

[sako 243]

w-m (aka)numpty. 4 things.
1 big difference from typo and lacking intelligence to spell deer.
2who forced you to shoot the dears.i dont do things that upset me and the sh*te you shoot to eat,are there no shops nearby.probably not in cuckoo land.
3obviously not the drug you are on

[###w-m###]

sako, i do not know what I have done or said to offend you. I even praised your honesty for admitting your hunting.

If you can not have a debate without resorting to petty insult for no reason whatsoever, I think I know who is the more intelligent being.

I gather you are probably scotch scum of the farming community who suffer with low pay
That is not your fault.

And what is your fourth thing??

I come on AB for a sensible dabate and am insulted by a peasant. And a scotch peasant at that.

The sign when one indicated an "L" on their forehaed springs to mind.

Filthy scotch scum.

[alexmac]

Sensible dEbate Minter ? No chance from your bedsit !!

Never mind Wardy old chap, you are after all just dear old 'Wardy', the well-known buffoon and self-styled country gentleman. You are a whole bundle of laughs and social superiority, oh dear man, don't scratch the Bentley. Prat.