Sink The Bismark. Was This A War Crime?

[10ClarionSt]

Many sailors who were at this battle said the Bismark had raised the black flag of surrender before being torpedoed by HMS Dorsetshire. Was this tantamount to a war crime by the British Navy? It's speculated that Churchill wanted the Bismark sunk in repraisal for the loss of HMS Hood. Many of the crew on Dorsetshire protested about firing torpedos into Bismark. But like many things in WW2, I suppose we will never really know the full story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391220/Should-sunk-Bismarck-Tormented-sailor-reveals-German-sailors-tried-surrender-ship-destroyed-costing-2-000-lives.html

[emmie]

just one, but plenty more where he came from. nor did he pay for his crimes.


Josef Mengele (German: [ˈjoːzɛf ˈmɛŋələ] ( listen); 16 March 1911 – 7 February 1979) was a German SS officer and a physician in the Nazi concentration camp Auschwitz. He earned doctorates in anthropology from Munich University and in medicine from Frankfurt University. He initially gained notoriety for being one of the SS physicians who supervised the selection of arriving transports of prisoners, determining who was to be killed and who was to become a forced labourer, but is far more infamous for performing human experiments on camp inmates, including children, for which Mengele was called the "Angel of Death".

[emmie]

if anyone thinks that the sinking of the Bismarck was a war crime, then read what this man did, beyond comprehension....

[paddywak]

A few years ago I watched the documentary series "The Nazis, A Warning From History" and one particular scene has always stuck in my mind.One Jewish guy whose family had been betrayed managed to track down the woman who had betrayed them,then in her sixties.Of course she trotted out all the excuses and denials until the guy produced written evidence from the Gestapo files including the letter written and signed by the women her denouncing his family.The women blustered a bit and then finally admitted she had done it, but it didn't really matter as they were only "Dirty Jews"

[emmie]

first hand experiences, documentary evidence, footage, newsreels you name it, and many did escape punishment, some were tracked down by Nazi hunters, but that was time consuming and not always fruitful.

[jake-the-peg]

I think the key question here is whether the attempt to surrender was 'official'.

Was the raising of the flag authorised by the shipps commanding officer or just the action of a few men.

The Navy account (in the box) says the ship continued to return fire - was this true? who knows

The point about war crimes is they are absolute not relative


You cannot justify murdering 2,000 because your opponents have murdered 20,000 or 200,000

The Sailors on the Bismark did not run Jewish extermination camps

[Sqad]

Jake.......like so many aspects of war human loss is just "collateral damage"...........orders from admiralty was to SINK THE BISMARK and that was what the final salvo of torpedoes did.

No time for a Union meeting with the crew of the British ships, NUS and the local shop steward.............and a pint of beer with sandwiches.

[jake-the-peg]

I think sqad you'll find that the judges at Neurenberg did not take kindly to the 'we were just following orders' defence.

People in the armed forces are not absolved from their legal and moral responsibilities when signing up.

Unfortunately there are a number who seem to think it does

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10142.htm

[Sqad]

JTP

\\\I think sqad you'll find that the judges at Neurenberg did not take kindly to the 'we were just following orders' defence. \\\\

These sort of trials are for the losers.....one very rarely hears of the victors being tried.

[nungate]

According to some the Bismarck was scuttled by her own crew. Some of the German crew were pulled from the sea by the British, even more might have been saved but for the fact that there were reports of u boats in the area, and as the British ships were not in motion they might have been caught and sunk, by a u boat taking not only the British to the bottom but their own countrymen

[ToraToraTora]

No! troll question.

[jno]

don't be silly. 10ClarionSt is not a troll.

[petal54]

to many,war itself is a war crime

[doctordb]

Here's to the swordfish!

[ToraToraTora]

Perhaps but this is a standard troll question designed to annoy rather than induce any sort of discussion. No doubt some eejit above has used this to whine about the Belgrano, warship sunk during war what a surprise, end of, move on! One of the standard questions the anti British love to raise from time to time, so they can laud it over the knuckle draggers and feel all superior. Just put one of the jellies in the Atlantic getting shot at by German warships and they'd turn into Ghengis Kahn if their Guardian got wet! PMSL!

[ChillDoubt]

But of course - as sandyRoe points out, victors never commit war crimes.

But the Germans, as I recall, were prosecuted for theirs. Whereas ours just never happened.
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No one denies there were a few but really, do try and get a sense of perspective.
An 'ours v theres' comparison is pointless.
Concentration camps aside the Allies didn't gain a reputation for shooting POW's for attempted escapes nor wipe out whole villages in reprisal acts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich#Aftermath

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_III_escape#After_the_escape

Given what they'd found, one might have understood the mindset of these US troops:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals

Do you understand the sense of perspective now?

[jno]

"their crimes were worse than ours" is not a defence.

[jno]

incidentally, 26,000 women and children died in British concentration camps during the Boer war. Not bad considering Britain had only just invented them; you can feel justly proud.

[ChillDoubt]

I didn't mount a defence, I asked you to get a sense of perspective, which you clearly haven't.
Do you believe the Allies committed atrocities of a similar nature to those I gave, notwithstanding the Holocaust?

[ChillDoubt]

incidentally, 26,000 women and children died in British concentration camps during the Boer war. Not bad considering Britain had only just invented them; you can feel justly proud.
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Pathetic.
What'll it be next? British troops villified for killing too many people of the wrong colour at Rorke's Drift?
Bit too enthusiastic at Culloden?
Let's try and keep it within the confines of WWII, shall we?

[FredPuli43]

The film was certainly a crime of some sort. Overacting, for a start.

As to the real incident, the evidence is inconclusive. One thing is certain. The victors are not going to raise any doubts about it. I wonder why the Daily Mail chose this story.