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England's position in the World Cup is anomalous - it plays some sports as if it were a separate country, which it isn't, and others as part of Great Britain (the Olympics, for instance, or rugby league). So the fans are waving their national flag, even though only part of their nation is participating. It would be more complicated if the Scots, say, were in the competition too (in which case England fans would probably stick to the red and white flag); but they aren't.
Wonderful!!
Exactly the response I was looking for!
Phew.. It took longer than I expected.
Wouldn't a piece of music such as Rule Britannia suggest that it refers to ALL of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, rather than just one its constituent parts?
Might some of the other parts of the United Kingdom other than England find it... I don't know....a little patronising, possibly even arrogant, that the English could presume to sing this at a football match.
Might it be a liitle over confident for the English fans to think of UK of GB and England, to be one and the same?
Some wild eyed cynics might even think it's a little ignorant and possibly even shows a level of thoughtlessness that borders on the racist ie there is only one superior country and it is course England.
I accept it's a little too much to expect this of football fans.
Why can't they have their own football song, like the the rugby fans do and sing that traditional old English ditty, 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot'??...now that can't possibly be a negro spiritual is it??
Exactly the response I was looking for!
Phew.. It took longer than I expected.
Wouldn't a piece of music such as Rule Britannia suggest that it refers to ALL of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, rather than just one its constituent parts?
Might some of the other parts of the United Kingdom other than England find it... I don't know....a little patronising, possibly even arrogant, that the English could presume to sing this at a football match.
Might it be a liitle over confident for the English fans to think of UK of GB and England, to be one and the same?
Some wild eyed cynics might even think it's a little ignorant and possibly even shows a level of thoughtlessness that borders on the racist ie there is only one superior country and it is course England.
I accept it's a little too much to expect this of football fans.
Why can't they have their own football song, like the the rugby fans do and sing that traditional old English ditty, 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot'??...now that can't possibly be a negro spiritual is it??
Sorry Kingy but you're wrong. Rule Britannia doesn't refer to Scotland or Ireland: it refers quite specifically to England coming as it does from the masque Alfred (about Alfred the Great); a king of England, not Britain or the UK,
The word Britannia itself is the Latin name given to England (or possibly England and Wales). The Roman words for Scotland and Ireland were Caledonia and Hibernia. In fact, when Rule Britannia was written, Ireland was not part of the UK (and Scotland had only been for about 30 years).
So the English fans are certainly behaving perfectly rationally when they sing it. Perhaps you should be reading some history books.
The word Britannia itself is the Latin name given to England (or possibly England and Wales). The Roman words for Scotland and Ireland were Caledonia and Hibernia. In fact, when Rule Britannia was written, Ireland was not part of the UK (and Scotland had only been for about 30 years).
So the English fans are certainly behaving perfectly rationally when they sing it. Perhaps you should be reading some history books.
If "Rule Britannia" refers only to England why does it include the words
"Blest isle! with matchless,
With matchless beauty crown'd.....?"
Last time I looked, England wasn't an island, Great Britain is but.
It also says "Britons never never never shall be slaves." not the English but Britons.
Scotland wasn't part of the UK when it was written in 1740 as the UK didn't exist til 1801.
Just thought I'd make those points since some folk are wanting accuracy ( I could also point out that Alfred wasn't King of all England either-Danelaw and all that etc.)
"Blest isle! with matchless,
With matchless beauty crown'd.....?"
Last time I looked, England wasn't an island, Great Britain is but.
It also says "Britons never never never shall be slaves." not the English but Britons.
Scotland wasn't part of the UK when it was written in 1740 as the UK didn't exist til 1801.
Just thought I'd make those points since some folk are wanting accuracy ( I could also point out that Alfred wasn't King of all England either-Danelaw and all that etc.)
Albion appears to have been a pre-Roman word meaning Great Britain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion
The Roman province of Britain was called Britannia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain
Alfred was, I guess, an English king if not king of England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion
The Roman province of Britain was called Britannia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain
Alfred was, I guess, an English king if not king of England.
The point i was making was that it's too glib to talk about Rule Britannia as a British anthem.
The concept of the UK is a relatively new one, as we know it today, it's only 80 odd years. As I pointed out, when RB was written, Ireland wasn't yet a part of the UK and although Scotland had joined with Britain as United Kingdom, it was still an alien concept to many Britons (the second Jacobite uprising was only five years away). I believe also that the Royal Navy was still known as the English navy at the time.
The Romans used Britannia to describe England and Wales (just to show I didn't fall asleep in Latin lessons). Later on, the terms Anglia and Cambria were used in their place.
Of course it's more complex than that: words and phrases are interchangeable and boundaries shift but all talk of Rule Britannia as a British song is wide of the mark. The intent was clearly a celebration of Englishness (and I know that Alfred wasn't a king of all-England), in particular, Alfred's role in setting up a permanent navy.
It's interesting to compare RB with the National Anthem. GSTQ has now been adopted as the anthem of the UK, yet as one of the later verses talks of scattering the rebellious Scots, its clear that this is also an English song that has been extended beyond the English borders.
And one final irony: the author of the words of Rule Britannia, James Thompson, was born in Scotland, but worked in London.
The concept of the UK is a relatively new one, as we know it today, it's only 80 odd years. As I pointed out, when RB was written, Ireland wasn't yet a part of the UK and although Scotland had joined with Britain as United Kingdom, it was still an alien concept to many Britons (the second Jacobite uprising was only five years away). I believe also that the Royal Navy was still known as the English navy at the time.
The Romans used Britannia to describe England and Wales (just to show I didn't fall asleep in Latin lessons). Later on, the terms Anglia and Cambria were used in their place.
Of course it's more complex than that: words and phrases are interchangeable and boundaries shift but all talk of Rule Britannia as a British song is wide of the mark. The intent was clearly a celebration of Englishness (and I know that Alfred wasn't a king of all-England), in particular, Alfred's role in setting up a permanent navy.
It's interesting to compare RB with the National Anthem. GSTQ has now been adopted as the anthem of the UK, yet as one of the later verses talks of scattering the rebellious Scots, its clear that this is also an English song that has been extended beyond the English borders.
And one final irony: the author of the words of Rule Britannia, James Thompson, was born in Scotland, but worked in London.
Life is all about perception. Read my words carefully from earlier postings.
Could Rule Britannia be perceived as a �British� song? I think you know it could.
English people tend regard England and Britain as the same thing.
Is it ignorance or racism?
Discuss.
(I should read some history books�are you having a laugh? If only you knew)
Could Rule Britannia be perceived as a �British� song? I think you know it could.
English people tend regard England and Britain as the same thing.
Is it ignorance or racism?
Discuss.
(I should read some history books�are you having a laugh? If only you knew)
Rule Britannia should be sung in context ie a British context.
It should not be sole reserve of the English nation.
Anyone who considers themselves British and wishes to sing Rule Britannia, should go ahead and knock themselves out.
Enjoy yourselves...
I am just asking why the funny English types seem to get Britain and England mixed up. They are not the same thing.
Maybe they're more to be pitied than scorned.
God Save the Queen!!
It should not be sole reserve of the English nation.
Anyone who considers themselves British and wishes to sing Rule Britannia, should go ahead and knock themselves out.
Enjoy yourselves...
I am just asking why the funny English types seem to get Britain and England mixed up. They are not the same thing.
Maybe they're more to be pitied than scorned.
God Save the Queen!!
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