Dunkirk

[Hugh Spencer]

During this week's commemoration of the Evacuation of Dunkirk can we not only remember the bravery of the army, navy and little ships but that between 28th May and 3rd Jun 1940, 956 sorties were carried out against enemy targets around Dunkirk by Bomber Command with the loss of 57 aircraft, about 160 aircrew. They, too, should be remembered.

[jake-the-peg]

Or perhaps we could all just get over it and stop the endless commemoration of ancient history

[jackthehat]

Define ancient, JtP, please..............

[Mosaic]

Jake, without knowledge of the past we lose the ability to learn how to make a better future. And in this particular case our better future was ensured by some very brave people.
I say thanks to all of them and keep the memories alive.

[paddywak]

It's not that ancient, Jake there are still men and women alive today, who experienced these events

[Hugh Spencer]

What kind of memories do you treasure, Jake?

[jake-the-peg]

Treasure?

An abject defeat with the ignominious scramble of thousands of troops running away back to England?

Or Bomber command - raining firebombs on Dresden in retalliation for Coventry

A very strange choice of words Hugh - rather disturbing!

It seems every year we have to go on about an anniversery of the Battle of Britain or Dunkirk or VE day or some such.

Living in the past is a very bad British habit

Seems to me one that is often indulged in by people who enjoy trying to stoke up patriotic fervour based on some mythical history of "our Island race" as some sort of special breed

[jno]

it's hardly confined to Britain, jake. Do you commemorate your birthday?

[jackthehat]

ooooo....... the 'grumbly' is off, again. :o(

There are many, many, many historical events (be they triumphs or not), that having passed beyond living memory are rightly consigned to history.

However, things still within those bounds, things that have shaped our modern world deserve to be commemorated..........that is not exactly the same as 'celebrated', jake.

The celebration (if it is such) is of the armada of little ships rather than the retreat of the BEF.

[jake-the-peg]

Yes Jno - but nobody died - I hardly think that's a valid comparisom

And yes Jack they do - but WWII seems to be commemorated again and again and again like a broken record

We just get past the 65th anniversary of VE day and bless my soul it's time for the 70th Anniversary of Dunkirk and we can start all over again.

[jackthehat]

'Within living history' - it's a powerful thing, jake.

[jackthehat]

bah !
Within living memory.............

[jno]

Nobody remembers Dunkirk because of deaths, jake. In fact it's scarcely a military memory at all; it's more socialist than that, to do with community spirit and determination.

I think jack's right, it's got a lot to do with the fact that it was within *living* memory. Commemoration of WW1 is now limited to November 11 and it's basically been broadened in scope to include the whole war, civlian deaths, dead soldiers anywhere anytime... Mafikeng and Azincourt are remembered, sort of, but no longer commemorated. As things slip out of memory, they'll slowly fall off the official calendar too.

[jake-the-peg]

I'm OK with that - it's just the interminable commemoration of every event within WWII that gets to me.

Oh it's the 68th Aniversary of Churchill and Eisenhower having a drink day.

We don't seem to celebrate Suez that often do we? Perhaps it's because we were the invaders and the Yanks told us off

[jackthehat]

How much 'actual' impact do these commemorations have on your life, jake ?

Is it not simply the case that you could quite easily ignore them ?

Just think, if they were shuffled off the calendar..............you'd have to come up with something else to grumble about !

[jno]

perhaps we don't commemorate Suez because we lost... but that conflicts with your complaint that we remember Dunkirk even though that was a loss too... Incidentally in the 1950s film about Dunkirk, starring John Mills and directed by Barry Norman's dad, you might expect some sort of celebration but the soldiers in it actually grumble that the whole thing is an almighty shambles. I don't think anyone has ever been under any illusion that it was some sort of triumph, more of a lucky escape.

But lucky escapes are worth celebrating too - Pepys always held a dinner party on the anniversary of having his kidney stone removed (which he survived mainly because it was the surgeon's first op of the day and his instruments hadn't had time to get infected).

[123everton]

Bomber command have been wrongly overlooked for their contribution in the war effort, the area bombing campaign tied up a large number of troops in German cities, it did curtail their munitions development, production and distribution, more importantly than that, it also kept their excellent 88mm anti-aircraft gun away from the frontlines (most notably Italy), I think the Russians asked us to bomb Dresden.
Couldn't agree more about Suez, or for that matter Korea (even more obscure), to the same end why don't we celebrate merdeeka?
It was a victory for us.

[Sqad]

Why?
I t was widely rumoured that Hitler had a Panzer Division not 20 kilometres from the Dunkirk beaches, but failed to deploy them......anyone have any theories?

[123everton]

There are many theories, one of which was that he needed the tanks to finish off the rest of France, so they waited to refit them.
Personally I think it was the small British counter offensive (The Marne?) that caused it, their flanks were quite exposed at times and the thought of getting cut off didn't appeal.
The story that Hitler didn't want annihilate us in order to rule the world with us I feel is apophrical.
Within days of Dunkirk he knew he'd made a strategic blunder.

[MarkRae]

> it's just the interminable commemoration of every event within WWII that gets to me.

And it's going to get worse in just under four years when it'll be time to do the centenary thing with World War 1...

Now I'm the first to say that our history is vastly important, but I too tire of these annual commemorations...

[123everton]

The counter attack I was thinking of was at Arras.
Disagree Mark, the people who fought are still dead, and we are still indebted to them for their scacrifice.
I suppose one day WW2 will be a bit like the Napoleonic wars in the national consciousness, but not yet I feel.