Heaven

[l_h_kings]

If Heaven did not exist, do you think that humans would invent the concept of heaven to bring us comfort at the loss of our loved ones. And if so, doesn't this mean that heaven probably does not exist?

[bernardo]

Heaven does not exist;
Humans did invent the concept of Heaven;
Yes it does mean that Heaven does not exist.

[RevShirls]

Hmm - I'm not sure about this one. By saying "if heaven did not exist" you seem to imply that you believe it does (or perhaps you need to have the concept) ;)

I'm not sure if some would invent the concept - maybe they would - but I don't know how much comfort they would get from something they had knowingly invented. The reason that so many people get so much comfort�is because they actually believe it exists (whether rightly or wrongly).

Heaven is not something we can prove with any certainty - and I think it means different things to different people. For some it is a physical place, for others it is a state of being and for others probably something else. I happen to believe that life exists in some form after death but I'm not so aware of needing a concept of heaven just to comfort me.

[Clanad]

I would only ask bernardo, on what do you place your belief that heaven does not exist? I would ask RevShirls, on what do you place your belief in some form of life after death? If these are both beliefs only, i.e., how you feel it should be, then should there be a criticism of those who have belief in life after death, heaven and sheol, as described in great detail in ancient writings which are found to be dependable?

[jakesi]

We will all know oneday.

[smudge]

Or will we?

[IndieSinger]

No we won't know because when we're dead, we are incapable of knowing anything as we have ceased functioning.

In accordance with Clanad's post, I must add a sub-clause to my post, indicating that the views and ideas expressed in the above post are, however obviously, my own beliefs and no-one else's.

[smudge]

I agree with you Indie. I like to think of my beloved parents together up in Heaven & that maybe one day, we will all meet up again - but somehow I don't think so.

Then again, I'm still alive so I wouldn't know! :0]

[JohnDTC]

i find it hard to buy organised religion's explanation of god, or even rely on what my own interpretation of god would be, as these are merely anthropomorphic human inventions. it has been shown that there is perhaps some evolutionary advantage to develop religion -indeed every human civilisation on earth has some kind of spiritual belief system. this would mean that there may be genetic predisposition to being spiritual, believing in higher powers, & ultimately inventing a god, providing some kind of evolutionary advantage -e.g. stronger community bonds, less aggression towards members of own community etc. which would ultimately provide safer conditions for human survival. i think the invention of heaven/religion could also be a by-product of being intelligent enough to be self-aware & being conscious of our own mortality -i.e. a way of justifying our existence & giving it some meaning -otherwise, what would be the difference in living for an hour or 80 years?

however, just because in our modern age we are able to pick holes in organised religion, & maybe even prove religious texts as nonesense, is it not possible that there is some kind of creator or god, and heaven, that is far beyond human comprehension? something so abstract and above our intellect that we have no possibility of ever understanding it. there is an inifinite universe of possibility we have no concept of, & for someone to categorically state that there is no god or heaven is a touch arrogant & definate -although i accept that heaven and god could be human inventions. i also accept that existence of a creator may not neccessarily mean the existence of an afterlife.

[El D]

Dependable in what sense tho Clanad? The more detailed, the more believable a story is generally. Or do you think the ancient church would simply say heaven good hell bad and leave it at that? No there is no heaven. This is based on empirical observation of the known universe subject to self regulated testing and criticism. Yes there is a heaven. This is based on an old book, just one of many to have appeared throughout the past and offering its own subjective interpretation of the world.

I know which one is logical, rational, and infinitely more likely. However, there is no accounting for taste nor personal weakness.

[jake-the-peg]

Before you decide about heaven you have to decide about the soul. If you believe in heaven, reincarnation or any religion you need a soul to survive death.

If you believe in a soul you should then ask where does this soul live - is it physically part of you? can it get damaged? where did it come from? Does a baby have one? does an animal have one? Does my soul have memories of my life experience and if so what does my brain do?

When you start to think about it in these terms it becomes quite hard to believe that there is such a thing as an immortal soul which makes the concept of heaven rather pointless.

But then consider the traditional question of what God was doing before the creation of the universe and the traditional response "Creating an extra special Hell for those who ask awkward questions" :c) 

[RevShirls]

Clanad, I tend to base my beliefs on the things that Jesus said (or is reported to have said) as well as on the relationship I have with God, others, myself, and the world. I have also been with many people while they have been dying and I have had an overwhelming sense of the presence of God and the sense that some of the people who have been dying see something (difficult to describe) just before they die. This is, of course, all subjective (some could say that I/they need to see these things or form this interpretation in my/their mind/s) - hence I refer to is as my belief, rather than something empirical or concrete. I should add that although I am a deeply spiritual person, I am also extremely earthy too with my feet firmly on the ground.

[Octavius]

Heaven is a name for an imaginery utopia where we can believe if we like that our soul carries on.  Egyptians called it the Underworld (eternal life with the gods), Babylonians called it 'Descent of Inanna'

The ancient pagan Greek view, later adopted by the Romans, was that heaven was a physical place up in the sky. The word for heaven is used interchangeably with the location of the objects of the sky, as in "heavenly bodies", and for the dwelling place of the gods. That is why the Greek word for heaven and sky is the same; there was no distinction made between them in the earliest writings, but eventually they were also understood to be more as a metaphor for the spiritual heaven.

For the ancient pagan Greeks, Hades was a place. The physical place was where all humans go when they die, a site located at the center of the earth.

So you could conclude that heaven was invented by man.  Whether it exists or not is personal choice, I like to think it does.  People who say, you just die and that is it, really have no imagination.

[Glossopswift]

It's a shame that organised religion gets such a bad press. I am guessing from previous answers that RevShirls is a real Rev or similar, although she (is that an assumption? apologies if I am wrong) doesn't say so here. With answers like the one she gives above then organised religion can't be all that bad. Top answer. And my answer? Heaven (or call it what you like) is anything you want it to be, and while you are alive you do the things that you think will get you there. It exists for some and not for others (perhaps not the answer my Methodist upbringing was meant to lead to!)

[Trillipse]

assuming no higher power, what *is* going on then?

[El D]

*is* there anything going on then?

[kick3m0n]

if you believe in heaven.....do you also have to believe in hell???? 

[RevShirls]

I don't think belief in heaven necessarily leads to belief in hell. It would, of course, depend on the definition of heaven. I, for example, believe in some sort of spiritual state after death that I suppose I could define as heaven, but I have no concept of hell as a place. I do find the word "hell" or "hellish" useful to describe the living conditions of some people here on earth - eg people living in any subhuman conditions, those who are oppressed, abused, unuustly treated, those who face constant suffering, heartache etc

[smadge]

Rev Shirls, the word you are looking for is 'guess'. At best.
Felt the presence of God? Save it. You didn't . You felt something funny, and you feel a lot better if you go 'hmm, might be God, hope it is, if it is, then I'll feel a lot better about these doubts I've been having' and so you ascribe it to God. You don't know it's God. It's like me saying, ooh, I feel queer today, must be the donut maker in the shop down the road sending signals over the airwaves.
And you build a life around these feelings? And you convince others, including ignorant children, that they're all the truth,and that God is there, and that he is behind the feeling, whereas you should be actually saying is 'Kids, I'M GUESSING'.
Disgraceful.

[Glossopswift]

No, smadge - your answer is disgraceful. I'm not a religious type, I have heard all the reasoning and have made my own informed judgement. Maybe I think the same as you, but I certainly could have found a better way of putting it. Read RevShirl's words again, particularly ones like 'subjective', or 'my particular beliefs'. Where's the 'convincing ignorant children' in that? Try to take part in a decent debate rather than spit bile.

[Merlin]

In the supernatural, religious, biblical sense:

There is no heaven, hell, god, devil, sin, redemption etc etc.

This cosmos can be explained quite rationally without any requirement for those things. They are concepts invented by an ignorant mankind and developed and exploited by religious organisations.

If anyone would care to convince me otherwise, please go ahead - where are any of these things?

RevShirls

Are you, as your name suggests, a woman of the cloth? If so then I am surprised, although I shouldn't be, that your responses are so non-commital and woolly.