Stuctural Survey

[neg213]

We're in the process of moving house; the one we are buying is only 10 years old. The owners extended the conservatory over the back of the house, and removed what was the external door, making it open plan from the kitchen to the conservatory.

Our valuation stated that the house didn’t need a full structural report, however all certification in relation to the conservatory extension should be provided.

The vendor has provided an Electrical Certification, as additional lighting and sockets were installed, and I believe that as the glazing is new and not replacement, that this doesn’t require addition certification. Also, as it was only a small extension, planning permission wasn’t required.

What we haven’t been provided with is any building regs / structural report to state that when the external wall was knocked through, an RSJ was fitted and it’s structurally sound.

The vendor says he hasn’t got any documentation, and it didn't need any, and we should pay for a structural report if we want one. My argument is that, as the work was only completed 3 years ago, Building regs will have been in force, and there must have been some sign off?

Our solicitor suggests we offer to pay half, but I’m reluctant at this point. Is the vendor obliged to provide certification, in the same way that he has to provide an electrical certificate?

Thanks.

[Peter Pedant]

well I think you are obliged to make sure the house is worth the price you are paying.

The seller is saying I wanna sell, what price dja think ?

Basically your question is - I am not sure if this house will fall down - should I get a survey ?

answer; yes you should

or else back away - there are plenty on the market

[ubasses]

No expert so can only answer from experience.
Wearing my old hat as someone who signed off on mortgages I would always advise client to get a survey.
However when I sold my Mum's house I could not find the paperwork regarding walls that had been removed. (dementia meant she could not help).
The answer was that we purchased an insurance (indemnity) which satisfied the buyer that they would not be lumbered with a large bill if anything went wrong, and we were not responsible either. The Solicitor dealt with it and cost was approx £50.
If you really want the house and not the cost of survey they would probably not baulk at that cost. But remember that will not cover any other faults there may be with the property.

[The Builder]

Several things, neg. Firstly, just taking out the door would not be structural. I guess the opening has been widened?
That would need Building Regs Approval. That is the responsibility of the builder. A waste of time trying to find him I guess.

Local Building Control could, if they wanted to, ask the vendor for a retrospective Approval to "regularise" the situation.

It's the vendor's problem.

If B/Control have not been made aware of any of this, then the usual solution today is an Indemnity Insurance, which the vendor should take out.

Alternatively, a retrospective Approval wouldn't be a great problem. The trouble is, although a Retrospective is the proper solution, it may cost more than the Insurance. There would be a B/Control fee plus Structural Engineer's fees to calculate the steel beam.

I would either have a sum knocked off the price of the house, or better still, have the vendor sort it out. He's the one trying to sell a property with a "problem".

[buildersmate]

I believe you are missing an important point here.
By knocking out the former patio doors, the conservatory has been brought into the enclosed house. As such Building Regulations applied to the whole of the construction. That included the quality of the foundations used, plus CRITICALLY the need for the whole house (including this conservatory) to meet the minimum thermal insulation properties relevant at the time. Because the conservatory roof will leak heat out like a sieve, the whole of the rest of the house has to be insulated to an appropriately higher standard to compensate. The rules are that when the conservatory was done, a calculation should have been done (as part of Building Regs) that showed that opening up this space did not degrade the overall house below the minimum thermal standard in place at the when it was originally built.
This might seem like rules for the sake of it, but the good reason is for the householders benefit - have you considered how costly it is going to be heating the combined kitchen/conservatory in the winter?
The simple solution is that the original patio door should not have been removed, or others are put back in their place. Then, Building Regs would not have ever been applicable.
The business about a lintel above the place where the old doors where is a red herring. Unless the width of the aperture was altered, a ten year old house will always have had a lintel installed above it.

[buildersmate]

My post was constructed whilst the builder and ubasses created theirs.
It is true about an indemnity policy, but that protects only against reinforcement action by the local authority. You would not be able to use it to get retrospective work done when you find it perishing cold in that part of the house.

[neg213]

Thanks...

Yes, the opening was widened, so from your response i can assume the vendor must, or should have, got Building regs approval.

If building control were aware, and have signed off, can i further assume that i, or the vendor can request a copy certificate?

I maintain the fact that as the work requires building regs sign off, the vendor is reponsible for prooving it has been, and provide dumentation to evidence.

[buildersmate]

Yes, but not just for the structural element of the opening. Building Regs applied to the whole structure, as if it was an extension to the dwelling, which without the separating external doors, it is.

[buildersmate]

Here's the link to the Government's planning portal that explains the requirements in order for a conservatory to be exempt from Building Regs approval
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/conservatories/

The critical phrase is "The conservatory is separated from the house by external quality walls, doors or windows.", which your proposed purchase isn't.

[buildersmate]

By the way, I will tell you how the electrical work got signed off. It was done by a registered electrician who self-certifies, and sends the documentation to Building Control who then auto-issue the Part P Building Regs certificate for the electrical requirement - all perfectly normal. I will wager no building control officer has been near this extension.

[neg213]

Thanks all, really appreciated

[sfby]

When we had a conservatory built about 9 years ago we were told that building regs wouldn't allow us to have it open plan from the kitchen, and that we would need to put doors in.

We are SO glad we were made to do it, as in winter it would make the kitchen very cold indeed.

[The Builder]

Heat losses... an essential point by BM that I hadn't considered. Maybe the conservatory has a good thermal specification, but I doubt it.

Even after the B/Control issue has been resolved, I would certainly refit doors to the widened opening. Unless the conservatory detail is high spec, the heat losses would be horrendous as well as contravening B/Regs.

We may be wrong. We'd have to know how the extension was constructed to be sure.

[buildersmate]

The Building Control regularisation charge for an extension more than 10 sqm but less than 40 is £855. I've just been involved in one and I believe this to be a national scale that applies in England & Wales. That is just the BR cost, not the cost of any work required to meet the minimum standards. Armed with this info, your best bet is that you negotiate that the vendor puts external patio doors back into the gap. That solves the deficiency. They should be of at least a standard as was originally fitted, which I reckon was an air-gap of 6mm in opening doors (not sliding), and 12mm in any fixed side Windows. Although most current products will be sold to suit current regs, which I think is an 18mm air-gap.
This is the vendor's problem and he needs to solve it.

In terms of solving it without resealing up the opening, it will not be easy for the vendor to meet the thermal std overall, unless the roof glass is triple glazed sealed units. As sfby confirms, you really do not want to be buying this property as it stands, you will either be cold or spending lots on additional heating bills.

There is huge ignorance about this issue.

[neg213]

Again, thanks all... very useful infomation.

Judging by comments, i guess you are correct BM and that no one from BR has been near it, and the vendors ignorance of what is required is because they know that it will cost (them).

All the windows in the conservatory are K glass, not 100% on how good there thermal spec is. I asked the question about how warm it was in the winter when we viewed (not expecting a truthful answer) and they said that the kitchen doesn't loose lots of heat through the conservatory!

Are plans were always to put a solid lightweigt roof on (i suspect this will open up a whole host of different issues) to minimise heat loss, and look at fitting double doors that open out flush against the conservatory wall, so we can benefit from the open aspect in the summer, but close it off in the winter.

[buildersmate]

K glass is about the best you can get, but what's on the translucent roof? If K glass again that's good, but I'm still pretty confident it won't meet the relevant thermal spec. If it is polycarbonate, even quin-walled, there is no chance. It's the roof where most heat goes - hot air rises.
You can by all means decide to accept this situation, it's your call, especially if you are intending to block in the roof in. Just bear in mind the light loss into the room or rooms currently provided by light via the conservatory. You could then easily have 100mm of Celotex insulation in the rafters.
Still needs BR approval though or an indemnity policy at a cost of about £50.
Plenty of opportunity to ask to reduce selling price as vendor doesn't know your block-in plan.
You could ask for another look at the conservatory on a morning after a cold night. That'll give you an idea now nights are pulling in.