Quizzes & Puzzles10 mins ago
Gas Ch Boiler Problem
64 Answers
Hello. Any gas boiler experts out there? Or anyone who has had a similar problem and solved it ?
We have a gas boiler. A conventional one, not a condenser type. We have a hot water tank and central heating. The boiler is more than 20 years old but has been regularly 'serviced' and recently had both the hot water pump and the central heating pump replaced.
The problem is that the boiler fires up and gets the rads nice and hot, then everything cools down. The heat gets too low for comfort. Then the boiler fires up again but only for 5 minutes at the maximum, so the rads never get properly hot again.
We have had a procession of British Gas men, often 2 at a time in the house over the last 10 days, all coming up with different 'soutions' none of which work.
They have 'rebalanced' our rads, checked that there is no significant 'sludging' changed the schedule so that the Hot Water heating is not on at the same time as the Central heating, made sure that the rads that we don't need to be on are set as low as possible, given us a new room thermostat....all to no effect. And yes, you have guessed it, they say that our boiler is too small for the system, we need a new boiler and a powerwash. That boiler has kept us warm and toasty for years.
We think that there is a problem with the boiler timing mechanism.
Any ideas anyone ?
Thanks a lot.
:-))
We have a gas boiler. A conventional one, not a condenser type. We have a hot water tank and central heating. The boiler is more than 20 years old but has been regularly 'serviced' and recently had both the hot water pump and the central heating pump replaced.
The problem is that the boiler fires up and gets the rads nice and hot, then everything cools down. The heat gets too low for comfort. Then the boiler fires up again but only for 5 minutes at the maximum, so the rads never get properly hot again.
We have had a procession of British Gas men, often 2 at a time in the house over the last 10 days, all coming up with different 'soutions' none of which work.
They have 'rebalanced' our rads, checked that there is no significant 'sludging' changed the schedule so that the Hot Water heating is not on at the same time as the Central heating, made sure that the rads that we don't need to be on are set as low as possible, given us a new room thermostat....all to no effect. And yes, you have guessed it, they say that our boiler is too small for the system, we need a new boiler and a powerwash. That boiler has kept us warm and toasty for years.
We think that there is a problem with the boiler timing mechanism.
Any ideas anyone ?
Thanks a lot.
:-))
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I am afraid that I cannot report any progress today.
No men have visited.
The last we heard from the British Gas Man, the manager, was that they had been in touch with Vaillant and that someone from Vaillant would contact us within the next 2 hours. This phone call was at 3pm and thus far, no contact from anyone.
To say that we are frustrated is an understatement .
We have also lost any confidence we ever had in British Gas.
I will keep on updating this thread. Thanks to everyone who has responded I do appreciate people trying to help. :-))
No men have visited.
The last we heard from the British Gas Man, the manager, was that they had been in touch with Vaillant and that someone from Vaillant would contact us within the next 2 hours. This phone call was at 3pm and thus far, no contact from anyone.
To say that we are frustrated is an understatement .
We have also lost any confidence we ever had in British Gas.
I will keep on updating this thread. Thanks to everyone who has responded I do appreciate people trying to help. :-))
Further update, such as it is.
Gas Man responded to our text this morning to say that Vaillant would not be responding as our boiler was too old, the parts were obsolete, despite British Gas agreeing to pay for them to attend.
I have no idea whether any of this is true or not. I don't know that I believe any approach was ever made to Vaillant and I am pretty sure that the parts for our boiler can still be sourced...especially by the manufacturers. Why did he say yesterday that Vaillant would be contacting us?
However, they tell us that they have a replacement gas valve on order and will return with it tomorrow. (Having previously said that the valve would be here today and that they would fit it today). So we await developments tomorrow . I am pretty sure this will not work and fully expect them to blame our boiler again and say we have to have a new one. Well, if we do, it certainly will not come from British Gas.
The Builder.....how right you are.
Gas Man responded to our text this morning to say that Vaillant would not be responding as our boiler was too old, the parts were obsolete, despite British Gas agreeing to pay for them to attend.
I have no idea whether any of this is true or not. I don't know that I believe any approach was ever made to Vaillant and I am pretty sure that the parts for our boiler can still be sourced...especially by the manufacturers. Why did he say yesterday that Vaillant would be contacting us?
However, they tell us that they have a replacement gas valve on order and will return with it tomorrow. (Having previously said that the valve would be here today and that they would fit it today). So we await developments tomorrow . I am pretty sure this will not work and fully expect them to blame our boiler again and say we have to have a new one. Well, if we do, it certainly will not come from British Gas.
The Builder.....how right you are.
Thanks Lady Alex.
Just what I was thinking. I also found a few sites offering spares. Of course, some will have been discontinued, but a lot still remain.
Etch mentioned his earlier post. He was saying much the same as I had in my earliest post. This problem has all the signs of being due to failure(s) of some very simple control components.
Naturally it may turn out to either be something major, or where the spares needed are no longer available.
If major, then most probably not worth the cost of repair in a boiler of this age. Ok, fair enough. Time for a new boiler.
What really annoys me is people like BG, who have no interest in proper diagnosis........ only in boiler replacement.
A common problem, I can tell you.
Now the difficult bit. You need to do a little local research. Ask around for a reliable (independent) boilerman. Someone willing to try replacement of any of the relatively cheap control components such as thermistors and thermocouples first.
You may still have to abandon the cause, and pay up with no solution, but at least you'll know for sure.
Also, many such components are universal and need not necessarily have the Vaillant badge.
p.s. A local Trading Estate would most likely have one or two national plumbers' merchants. Asking at their trade counter would certainly get you a few names of tradesmen they deal with.
I know you are unused to dealing with surly tradesmen, but would be very surprised if they didn't leap to assist a Lady in distress.
;o)
Just what I was thinking. I also found a few sites offering spares. Of course, some will have been discontinued, but a lot still remain.
Etch mentioned his earlier post. He was saying much the same as I had in my earliest post. This problem has all the signs of being due to failure(s) of some very simple control components.
Naturally it may turn out to either be something major, or where the spares needed are no longer available.
If major, then most probably not worth the cost of repair in a boiler of this age. Ok, fair enough. Time for a new boiler.
What really annoys me is people like BG, who have no interest in proper diagnosis........ only in boiler replacement.
A common problem, I can tell you.
Now the difficult bit. You need to do a little local research. Ask around for a reliable (independent) boilerman. Someone willing to try replacement of any of the relatively cheap control components such as thermistors and thermocouples first.
You may still have to abandon the cause, and pay up with no solution, but at least you'll know for sure.
Also, many such components are universal and need not necessarily have the Vaillant badge.
p.s. A local Trading Estate would most likely have one or two national plumbers' merchants. Asking at their trade counter would certainly get you a few names of tradesmen they deal with.
I know you are unused to dealing with surly tradesmen, but would be very surprised if they didn't leap to assist a Lady in distress.
;o)
Yes I could spend all night telling some of the tricks BG get up to, you get the odd good engineer but on the whole they couldn't care a tosh. They will keep taking you're annual fee year after year but when a repair is needed, new boiler is all their interested in, and dearer than anyone else on the planet.
A few years back when I was daft enough to have a contract they actually left the rear end of the bottom of the boiler hanging down. I could see the burners between the loose gasket and the casing, the only reason I found out just after he had gone was that the boiler seemed very noisy compared to normal, I knew he had been struggling, because you rarely have to take a hammer to repair a boiler. I used a mirror to look at the rear of the boiler as it was difficult to get at and see, there were 4 bolts that had not been put back. Hence the gap. I turned everything off, the two kids were in bed as it was about 7pm. It was the one and only time that I didn't care less whether this chap lost his job for neglect. I rang the emergency number and they were back before I'd put the phone down. The chap came back with others and admitted that he couldn't get the back bolts back in because the threads were shot. Then they put a notice on the boiler ( out of order do not use) I said are you having a laugh, I decided that 5 mins after you're clown left or my kids would have been dead, and me. They then said we will be back in the morning with a pack of new bolts. What a joke. NOT.
Previous to that, the 3 port valve was forever failing, heating/hot water. They came 3 times in 4 months, it wasn't until the 3rd visit I realized what they were doing. Each time they came with a 3 port diverter valve including the powerhead, they would just fit the power head onto a sized / hard to turn valve, in turn the power head would crack. I only found out on the third time because he forgot to take the new valve with him, so all along I still had the same valve, clogged up with muck and scale. Of course it takes seconds to replace the power head, but a little to much work to change the valve, THE REAL PROBLEM.
A few years back when I was daft enough to have a contract they actually left the rear end of the bottom of the boiler hanging down. I could see the burners between the loose gasket and the casing, the only reason I found out just after he had gone was that the boiler seemed very noisy compared to normal, I knew he had been struggling, because you rarely have to take a hammer to repair a boiler. I used a mirror to look at the rear of the boiler as it was difficult to get at and see, there were 4 bolts that had not been put back. Hence the gap. I turned everything off, the two kids were in bed as it was about 7pm. It was the one and only time that I didn't care less whether this chap lost his job for neglect. I rang the emergency number and they were back before I'd put the phone down. The chap came back with others and admitted that he couldn't get the back bolts back in because the threads were shot. Then they put a notice on the boiler ( out of order do not use) I said are you having a laugh, I decided that 5 mins after you're clown left or my kids would have been dead, and me. They then said we will be back in the morning with a pack of new bolts. What a joke. NOT.
Previous to that, the 3 port valve was forever failing, heating/hot water. They came 3 times in 4 months, it wasn't until the 3rd visit I realized what they were doing. Each time they came with a 3 port diverter valve including the powerhead, they would just fit the power head onto a sized / hard to turn valve, in turn the power head would crack. I only found out on the third time because he forgot to take the new valve with him, so all along I still had the same valve, clogged up with muck and scale. Of course it takes seconds to replace the power head, but a little to much work to change the valve, THE REAL PROBLEM.
Hello again folks. The latest in this saga.
Lordalex phoned the Gas Men again and got a slightly different story.
The Man said that he had been on the phone to Vaillant for 4 hours. Vaillant said that the gas valve was not to blame but possibly an internal bypass and water recirculating was causing the problem. (Sorry if this doesn't make sense/ wrong words). Anyway the Gas Men's plan was to arrive bright and early tomorrow morning and 'rip the boiler apart'. They did add that , as some of the parts are obsolete (!), if they are found to be damaged the boiler would be, as Lordalex succinctly put it ****d.
Not trusting them at all now, we declined this generous offer to destroy our boiler . At least we have some heat and plenty of hot water at the moment.
We have found a local plumber, in fact the man who installed the boiler 23 years ago, and he is coming round on Thursday to advise.
At the moment I am hoping that he will be able to fix things, but if not perhaps he will be able to nurse it along until the better weather comes.
I seriously doubt that the Gas Man was on the phone for 4 hours to Vaillant.....in fact I doubt he was on to them for 4 minutes.
What a blinking nuisance.
Lordalex phoned the Gas Men again and got a slightly different story.
The Man said that he had been on the phone to Vaillant for 4 hours. Vaillant said that the gas valve was not to blame but possibly an internal bypass and water recirculating was causing the problem. (Sorry if this doesn't make sense/ wrong words). Anyway the Gas Men's plan was to arrive bright and early tomorrow morning and 'rip the boiler apart'. They did add that , as some of the parts are obsolete (!), if they are found to be damaged the boiler would be, as Lordalex succinctly put it ****d.
Not trusting them at all now, we declined this generous offer to destroy our boiler . At least we have some heat and plenty of hot water at the moment.
We have found a local plumber, in fact the man who installed the boiler 23 years ago, and he is coming round on Thursday to advise.
At the moment I am hoping that he will be able to fix things, but if not perhaps he will be able to nurse it along until the better weather comes.
I seriously doubt that the Gas Man was on the phone for 4 hours to Vaillant.....in fact I doubt he was on to them for 4 minutes.
What a blinking nuisance.
ladyalex - I was just about to go out for a walk in the countryside when I posted earlier to mention the manual links to The Builder. If I'd had more time I was going to say that spares for your boiler are available, but I see that you, and The Builder, had already discovered this - well done!
It's good news that the chap who installed your system is still in business - he sounds like your best bet at the moment. I hope things go well on Thursday - keep us posted!
It's good news that the chap who installed your system is still in business - he sounds like your best bet at the moment. I hope things go well on Thursday - keep us posted!
The boiler you have is more intricate than I had assumed - I thought it was quite basic, more or less of the type that either works fine or not at all (such as I know of and advise people to keep - a little less efficient but go on forever with minimal attention just the odd £5-10 thermocouple every few years, more cost efficient overall). Hopefully you will arrive at a useful diagnosis and repair.
Hello Karl
There has been some progress.
We are now resigned to getting a new boiler.
We got a local tradesman in to have a look at the boiler and to give us a quote for a new one.
The quote seemed very reasonable to us so we have accepted it.
The engineer who came (a different man from the chap who gave us the quote but from the same firm) had a look at the boiler to see if he could nurse it through to the better weather (who wants to have a new boiler installed in winter?). His first thought was that the pump was failing as the boiler itself seemed to be firing up OK and getting to temperature at least at first. We explained that British Gas had fitted a new pump in about September/October of this year...and he said that yes, they had but they had not fitted a whole new pump, just the head (not sure if these were his exact words, but I'm sure you will be able to figure out what was meant. )
He also wondered if a valve (sorry I cannot remember which valve) was sticky, tried something which would unstick it, but that failed.
Anyway, he was unable to find a quick fix which was what we were looking for....plus he only came yesterday, his last day of working, so he frankly did not have the time to do anything that would involve getting spares.
I have to say that we felt much more comfortable with this engineer than any of the procession of British Gas guys that have traipsed through our house, always leaving the back door open, never wiping their feet and not wearing masks until asked.
So, as soon as our local man can source a new boiler, he will install it....but I think the boiler comes from Germany so between the Dover situation and Brexit, who knows when that will be. We are hoping for mid January.
So.....we are still resentful at British Gas who could have made more of an effort to be engineers rather than boiler salesmen, but we cannot continue like this, so the new boiler option seems our best way forward.
I suppose after 23 years loyal an essentially trouble-free service, the old one doesn't owe us anything.
Thanks to everyone who has tried to help. I'll let you all know when we get sorted.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all.
:-))
There has been some progress.
We are now resigned to getting a new boiler.
We got a local tradesman in to have a look at the boiler and to give us a quote for a new one.
The quote seemed very reasonable to us so we have accepted it.
The engineer who came (a different man from the chap who gave us the quote but from the same firm) had a look at the boiler to see if he could nurse it through to the better weather (who wants to have a new boiler installed in winter?). His first thought was that the pump was failing as the boiler itself seemed to be firing up OK and getting to temperature at least at first. We explained that British Gas had fitted a new pump in about September/October of this year...and he said that yes, they had but they had not fitted a whole new pump, just the head (not sure if these were his exact words, but I'm sure you will be able to figure out what was meant. )
He also wondered if a valve (sorry I cannot remember which valve) was sticky, tried something which would unstick it, but that failed.
Anyway, he was unable to find a quick fix which was what we were looking for....plus he only came yesterday, his last day of working, so he frankly did not have the time to do anything that would involve getting spares.
I have to say that we felt much more comfortable with this engineer than any of the procession of British Gas guys that have traipsed through our house, always leaving the back door open, never wiping their feet and not wearing masks until asked.
So, as soon as our local man can source a new boiler, he will install it....but I think the boiler comes from Germany so between the Dover situation and Brexit, who knows when that will be. We are hoping for mid January.
So.....we are still resentful at British Gas who could have made more of an effort to be engineers rather than boiler salesmen, but we cannot continue like this, so the new boiler option seems our best way forward.
I suppose after 23 years loyal an essentially trouble-free service, the old one doesn't owe us anything.
Thanks to everyone who has tried to help. I'll let you all know when we get sorted.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all.
:-))
I sympathise with your sentiments and remain convinced that whatever the problem it is soluble without replacing the boiler - just as if an engine doesn't move your car you don't need to replace the whole car. Of course, in reality, this depends on the availability of replacement parts or the possibility of refurbishment of what is there and, often crucially, the cost of a technician's time.
Many is the time when I have kept things going that would have been (sometimes were) condemned by others, some of these were for a long time and some still are usable (and I occasionally use them) to this day years/decades later. In this, as when installing something in three rooms of our house that has often been an admired feature which I was flatly told would never survive (almost three decades later they are pristine), I would appear to have worked miracles - but that is nonsense.
More than any of the above provisos on your dilemma, whether you can do the necessary yourself is paramount. Having to pay someone else to do the necessary so often tips the margin of practicability the wrong way, always assuming you could even find someone willing to salvage matters. It is unquestionably so much easier for a technician to simply say there is no option but to abandon and replace - no thought required, quicker, more lucrative, you certainly don't need to be good at your job. The intricacies of modern construction (cars, boilers, everything) are such that there are multiple added layers of vulnerability - Murphy's Law is supreme: If it can fail it will fail. There are many advantages to this intricacy: When it works it's great, it provides lots of jobs, it gives the manufacturer a huge advantage with the large number of spares and tied "specialists" needed. But I have a strong suspicion that, because the consumer pays for it all, on balance simple is better in the end. That is leaving all and any environmental considerations aside.
Good luck and I hope you both have as good a holiday season as is possible under present circumstances. May 2021 bring you all you would want from it.
Many is the time when I have kept things going that would have been (sometimes were) condemned by others, some of these were for a long time and some still are usable (and I occasionally use them) to this day years/decades later. In this, as when installing something in three rooms of our house that has often been an admired feature which I was flatly told would never survive (almost three decades later they are pristine), I would appear to have worked miracles - but that is nonsense.
More than any of the above provisos on your dilemma, whether you can do the necessary yourself is paramount. Having to pay someone else to do the necessary so often tips the margin of practicability the wrong way, always assuming you could even find someone willing to salvage matters. It is unquestionably so much easier for a technician to simply say there is no option but to abandon and replace - no thought required, quicker, more lucrative, you certainly don't need to be good at your job. The intricacies of modern construction (cars, boilers, everything) are such that there are multiple added layers of vulnerability - Murphy's Law is supreme: If it can fail it will fail. There are many advantages to this intricacy: When it works it's great, it provides lots of jobs, it gives the manufacturer a huge advantage with the large number of spares and tied "specialists" needed. But I have a strong suspicion that, because the consumer pays for it all, on balance simple is better in the end. That is leaving all and any environmental considerations aside.
Good luck and I hope you both have as good a holiday season as is possible under present circumstances. May 2021 bring you all you would want from it.
Hello everyone who tried to help me. Just to update you...we are now the proud possessor of a new boiler and after a rather chilly Christmas and New Year are toasty! Hurrah!
It clearly was time for the old one to go as the whole house is now much warmer than it was, even before we had the problems last year.
We did NOT get it from British Gas and I am going to try to claim a refund on the annual home care agreement I have with them as I really do not want another British Gas employee in my house again ever.
Thanks all. :-))
It clearly was time for the old one to go as the whole house is now much warmer than it was, even before we had the problems last year.
We did NOT get it from British Gas and I am going to try to claim a refund on the annual home care agreement I have with them as I really do not want another British Gas employee in my house again ever.
Thanks all. :-))
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