No overall control......

[Bob A Job]

Seeing as the 'media' is generally more powerful and influencial than the government, and the media is effectively controled by public opinion, and the public crave scandal, controversy and disasters.

Who has control? and are we just on a rollercoaster downward spiral into our own demise.

Discuss

[landie]

Yes we are and I'm not sure that we can recover easily. Too may people expect the world to carry on without their positive input. In fact some are outright negative and expect others to put right their misdemeanours. Where oh where has the pride gone from this nation of ours?

[Tim Baxter]

How on earth can you come to the conclusion that the media is effectively controlled by public opinion?  It is entirely the other way round!

[smudge]

I'll second that landie.

[Octavius]

Yes it is the other way round, and it's a band-wagon not a rollercoaster!

[Bob A Job]

Tim & Octavius, I write that the media are controlled by the public because, nowdays media is not limited to 'the daily mail', 'the independant' and the 'bbc world service'.

The media is now largely represented by the likes of 'the sun', 'mtv' and the internet, all of which are capitalist, and survive on ratings and popularity alone. Therefore for this media to be sucessfull, it has to reflect public opinion.

Food for thought?!?

[Tim Baxter]

How naive of you.  What is the cost of a leader headline?  How much is the cost to its owner?  How much is its owner in the pay of big business?  How many time have you seen these words, 'The will of the British people....' which have been written by the hacks?  Make no mistake the media is there to manipulate the people at the behest of big business.  Politicians are there to to help big business.  Don't forget that Blaire has hijacked Tory values and is now paying the price, he is the fool of big business.  Strong words maybe.  I've watched politics now for 35 years, I haven't seen much progress in this world.  Power is centralised, locally, mostly in the totalitarian European state.  Where is my freedom gone?  Very soon, I, as a born and bred British citizen will be required to carry an ID Card.  You have no idea what that means to somebody who lived through the post-war fifties, 'peaceful' sixties and seventies and has seen the decay of the individual's rights.

There is no bigger power on earth than big business, it has no morality, conscience or public purpose save to further its own ends and perpetuate its own power.  Do you think that corporations like Microsoft, McDonalds, Exxon, Union Carbide, BP, ICI, Monsanto are there for the public good?  If you do then you're too naive for words.

I would submit that the Sun, mtv and the internet survive on their commercial 'porn' content.  That they are able to deliver a 'political message' at the same time is not conicidence.

Am I paranoid, maybe, but I think my view is more realistic than yours.  (As I would. lol!)

[Bob A Job]

Good arguements Tim, but in one of my previous debates we came to the conclusion that capitalism is just the extention of human nature, You yourself have said politicians dont have control, so whats the point of a newspaper deposing them? Big business is just a part of social evolutution, and in the very long term, it is self destructive. ergo, who has control?

As a born and bred British citizen that now lives abroad, I have to carry an ID card and do not resent it. It is part of life and does not mean I am any less free. In fact it increases my security, knowing I have nothing to hide. As for being Naive, well read my posts again and you will realise I am inspiring 'debate' here. If I play devils advocate, withold opinions, or make generalisations. It is solely in the interests of 'Debate'

[Tim Baxter]

The conclusion that capitalism is the extension of human nature is facile.  Human nature is human nature in all all its glorious facets.  That totalitarianism (Stalin, Titov, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Pol Pot), capitalism (The Yank versionand, latterly, ours), non-institutionalised Christianity (Jesus, Mother Theresa), self sacrifice (Gorbachev) exist are examples of the variation.

Politicians think that they have control but most are constrained by what big business and the civil service will let them do.  There are exceptions, Dennis Skinner, Frank Field, Enoch Powell, Tony Benn.  Most would say that these are 'losers' but they have integrity and honesty and are/were not afraid to speak out.  So if a newspaper deposes(?) them it is only to further that newspaper's owner's intentions.  They are easily replaced (well, apart from the Tories at the moment!) and so the game goes on.

[Tim Baxter]

Big business is part of social evolution?  How very trite.  Big business is big business, simply a more efficient way of controlling the proles and keeping the fat cats in their position.  This is perpetuated by advertising, the consumer society, national paranoia and generally keeping the populace's mind off important things.  Hmmm, important things....like tobacco, acknowledged as the UK's biggest killer and debilitater, brings in billions to the exchequer, costs the NHS billions, keeps thousands in work, earns billions in exports.  Any sensible person would ban the sale outright but successive gov'ts don't, I wonder why.  MacDonald�s, creates international uniformity, soulless employees, tasteless food and a fat population yet they get away with it.  And our media are filled with scandalous stories, pornographic images and reportage, does this further the national debate?  The National Lottery, offered by Branson to be run profit free so more money can go to charities, so what do the politicians do?  Everything they do keeps the public's mind off real issues.  Ask any 'man in the street' what he thinks is important, is the gov't addressing it?  I don't think so.

You misunderstand my point on the ID card.  I don't actually resent having to carry one.  My concern is the events which have led up to the necessity.  That is, neglect of overseas 'politics', lack of understanding of foreign, virile religions, milking the productivity of other nations.  At every point in our overseas and domestic history which mark the diminution of our personal and national soul we have made the choice which has brought about anarchy, revolt, starvation, civil war.  Why on earth with all the world's history at our disposal did we make those stupid choices?  American war of independence, Indian revolt, uprising and partition, Irish partition, Argentinean conflict to name a few.

[Tim Baxter]

Finally you say that you're only inspiring debate.  Well, I suppose you have, you've certainly got a rant or two from me.  But is this the forum for debate?  I note there are no 'Politics' or 'Legal' forums on this site.  Should there be? (rhetorical).  I like this forum 'cos I have an interest in science and maybe I shouldn't have risen to your bait.  Surely there are forums where you can 'discuss' your hypotheticals better than this one.

End of rant.