Duty And Its Consequences.

[sandyRoe]

While on a quiet Winter Camino in Spain I met up with a German man of about my own age. We walked and talked and he eventually told me that his father had been in the SS during the war.
He told me that his father had admitted to have done some terrible, murderous, things. They were under a strict discipline which meant if you didn't obey an order from the officer
who gave it you could be shot .
That memory came to mind this morning when I heard that the man who is accused of making the bomb which blew up the plane over Lockerbie has been arrested and taken to the USA.
Can a functionary be blamed for following orders?

[Redhelen72]

In this scenario perhaps you are guilty when you break the Geneva Convention of 1929?

[Khandro]

'Desertion, or absence without leave, was considered one of the worst offences possible as a member of the British and Commonwealth Armies during World War 1. As such it was punishable by death, and 306 men, many of whom were still teenagers, were shot at dawn by their comrades between 1914 and 1919.'

[naomi24]

It's very easy to say that you wouldn't follow orders but if that means dying for your convictions, the reality is likely to be very different. That takes a brave soul indeed - but following orders simply because they are orders doesn't render the perpetrator innocent. It is my belief that both the SS man and the bombers embraced the philosophy of their masters.

[Redhelen72]

The Husband has 2 relatives that were in the Waffen SS - apparently they joined because it 'was the done thing'

[vulcan42]

I would think in most of these cases, self preservation would be paramount.

[Peter Pedant]

This was well tested in the war crimes trials 1946-50 and I honestly cant remember what occurred

or whether the doctrine was refeeened.


This defence was run by all those on trial. successfully in some case.

Is there immunity from criminal acts whilst armed - er no. Nurder is murder. and war crimes, as we know in Ukraine are war crimes

so criminal liability can be assigned even in the army

[Peter Pedant]

I would think in most of these cases, self preservation would be paramount.

excuse me - but "the usual excuses" cannot be used. Self prez is hardly relevant for bombing a plane
and a fortiori ( = even more strongly but in the language Naomi calls 'forrin') to suicide belts

( coz ( for other ABers, if you blow your self up, it cant really be called self-prez. I am going to bits on some of these posts)

[naomi24]

PP, //excuse me - but "the usual excuses" cannot be used. //

Vulcan didn't suggest that.

//I am going to bits on some of these posts//

If you make the effort to read them and understand what's written, you may have a chance of holding yourself together.

[Peter Pedant]

that means dying for your convictions,
whole point of the inspirational side of Christian martyrdom innit?

[I only have convictions when I am safe and in no danger, oh, ok then]

[Peter Pedant]

Vulcan didn't suggest that.

it is in the post - cant I use it - or am I the only one who makes completely off the wall c?omments that no one understands?

+following orders cannot be any sort of defence ( that would work) when blowing up a plane - but hey that is just me - silly old me saying that

[andy-hughes]

There are many instances throughout history, when individuals have obeyed orders to save their own lives.

But many who carry out orders that chime with their own beliefs and intentions.

This situation appears to be the latter, but we can't know that for certain.

[goodgoalie]

I doubt that the man recently arrested - or anyone else from Libya, for that matter - had anything to do with the Lockerbie bomb.

[Peter Pedant]

Now-- a parallel

The Arena bomber ( 's brother) - the police were told by immigrant Libyans here, from their relations ( lucky relations! ) back in Libya that the brother was in a Libyan prison.

and so it was again - the detainee / accused was in prison. One admin ( Gaddafi) liked, succeeding admin ( the one now) not liked. such is life
and relatives of Libyans here, informed the authorities.

sort of. I asked him ( in arabic of course) if the libyans here were co operating with the authorities and he said " of course. None of us want to be sent back"

he was the one who said when I asked how the family was - "they have cut my brothers hand off"

now - - back to self defence as a defence for bombing an airplane

[Peter Pedant]

Usually only if they're on the losing side, Sandy, the winners get to justify their actions.

yes - The Victors write the histories -
how odd to find a rational comment here
Winston Churchill - AND Goebbels -
and My Lord Archbishop Of Canterbury in a christmas broadcast- I did write to him to advise and reprove.

a German friend said - oh that is a very germanic idea, lots of people must have said that over the years.

Now in the war crimes trials- the SS had been declared a criminal org. and so...the following orders bit didnt work

[Peter Pedant]

now this lots came to trial 1949

Soldiers of Kampfgruppe Peiper summarily killed eighty-four U.S.(POWs) who had surrendered after a brief battle.

and THEY were found to have ALSO done the massacre at Wormhoudt 1940 - see wiki.
But were not proceeded against on that one when they successfully pleaded all the perps had been killed at Stalingrad.

following orders of course - - see orig post

and later acquitted of Malmedy on the grounds that the evidence had been tortured out of them.

quite alot about it here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre#War_crimes_trial

oh, and this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

have fun boys and gurlz

[Peter Pedant]

I doubt that the man recently arrested - or anyone else from Libya, for that matter

plucked from a prison in Libya apparently.
Did he really go around the nick saying - "I was a bomb maker for the last gubmint?"
well stranger things have happened

[Peter Pedant]

There are many instances throughout history, when individuals have obeyed orders to save their own lives.

yup duress as a defence in English Crim law- has been used in bank robbery cases ( one example of which I cant give)

[Peter Pedant]

Do we actually know who planned it?

me: hello Mr Gaddafi - did you plan this?
Gaddafi for it is he: no ( or la in arabic)
Me: oh, well we dont know who planned it then

thank god this is AB ! ( on a monday )

[Atheist]

In answer to the OP.
If you disobey an order you will be shot on the spot, or (even worse) tomorrow morning.
If you obey an order and then lose the war you might be shot in a few years' time, or not at all.
We're not all heroes. Some of us might take the less painful route.