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Double Firsts
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I keep reading/hearing about well-known people who got double firsts at Oxford or Cambridge: David Baddiel (English), Lily Cole (History of Art) and, I think, James Norton (Theology) at Cambridge. Could somebody please explain the difference between a double first and an ordinary (!) first. Are 'Doubles' only given at Oxbridge? Hey, one of you ABers out there might have one of these mysterious Doubles!
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I suppose that all of the traditional universities have their own way of doing things.At Durham, on the honours course, you also had to study a secondary subject for two years at general degree level which counted towards your final degree. I did not know about this until the second day after my arrival. I was in a panic as what to choose.
As an Oxbridge professor, I do sympathise with all this as it can be pretty abstruse at times. No matter which of the two you graduate from , the other place is invariably regarded as weirder when it comes to awarding degrees.
I've graduated from and held senior academic positions at both Oxbridge and Cambridge. I must have spent many hours trying to explain how the system works at posts I've held along the way at other universities. I still hold half a dozen visiting professorships in the USA and without exception, staff look incredulous when I try to explain how Oxford and Cambridge differ in these things. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way but I suppose I'm biased.
The one thing that senior academic positions have allowed us to do in recent years is to omit degrees from academic papers and books that we author. The academic job title alone is sufficient in most cases nowadays. In my case, I've hardly ever declared that I possess an ScD and a DSc as well as a PhD and a D.Phil. I've rarely seen the point.
Incidentally, I never have been a supporter of upgrading a degree to a MA via payment with no associated research or study.
I've graduated from and held senior academic positions at both Oxbridge and Cambridge. I must have spent many hours trying to explain how the system works at posts I've held along the way at other universities. I still hold half a dozen visiting professorships in the USA and without exception, staff look incredulous when I try to explain how Oxford and Cambridge differ in these things. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way but I suppose I'm biased.
The one thing that senior academic positions have allowed us to do in recent years is to omit degrees from academic papers and books that we author. The academic job title alone is sufficient in most cases nowadays. In my case, I've hardly ever declared that I possess an ScD and a DSc as well as a PhD and a D.Phil. I've rarely seen the point.
Incidentally, I never have been a supporter of upgrading a degree to a MA via payment with no associated research or study.
I'm giving you full marks brainiac: My ScD was awarded by Cambridge and the DSc by Oxford. I have degrees from both. The DSc can be awarded by other UK universities too.
Yes, I have a Double First. It was awarded more years ago than I care to remember all the same but it did get me on the ladder to academic glory. I sometimes wonder where I'd be today if I'd left uni and gone to teach in a grammar school!
Yes, I have a Double First. It was awarded more years ago than I care to remember all the same but it did get me on the ladder to academic glory. I sometimes wonder where I'd be today if I'd left uni and gone to teach in a grammar school!
All this talk of degrees and university has stirred up a lot of thoughts about my own uni days many moons ago. Might I ask you, prof, a couple of things I've often wondered about?
Is it possible to be accepted to study for a PhD or similar doctorate without a first-class (or double first!) degree?
Is it possible to become a professor (not a visiting or honorary) at a 'good' - say, Russell Group - university without a doctorate?
Is it possible to be accepted to study for a PhD or similar doctorate without a first-class (or double first!) degree?
Is it possible to become a professor (not a visiting or honorary) at a 'good' - say, Russell Group - university without a doctorate?
1. Yes, it most certainly is. There are quite a few in both Russell Group uni's
and the others.
2. This depends on the discipline by and large. It's not unknown in the
languages and the arts in most modern universities ( I'll not say red-brick!)
and somewhat rarer in the Russell Group. Sciences in the Russell Group
have relatively few.
and the others.
2. This depends on the discipline by and large. It's not unknown in the
languages and the arts in most modern universities ( I'll not say red-brick!)
and somewhat rarer in the Russell Group. Sciences in the Russell Group
have relatively few.
The wording of TheProf's post seems to imply that the 'red brick' universities are distinct from the Russell Group, whereas they actually form a subset of it. (The red brick universities are, by most people's definitions, the original six civic universities of Birmingham, Bristol, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield, all of within are within the Russell Group).
I also detest the term 'good' university, as used by Brainiac. It seems to deny that other universities can be outstanding, despite the fact that, for example the best university in the world to study Environmental Sciences is probably UEA. (Similarly, Southampton excels in Marine Sciences and the LSE is outstanding for Economics).
I also detest the term 'good' university, as used by Brainiac. It seems to deny that other universities can be outstanding, despite the fact that, for example the best university in the world to study Environmental Sciences is probably UEA. (Similarly, Southampton excels in Marine Sciences and the LSE is outstanding for Economics).
I'm afraid that there is no true definition of red-brick universities any longer Chris. One definition currently in use is that the term refers to universities built in the last couple of centuries. I'd agree that the term did refer to the civic universities you mention at one time but I'm afraid it's no longer the case. The term seems to be used with far more flexibility than it did years ago.
Overall, this subject has caused some heated discussion in common-rooms believe me. I remember listening to a discussion that went on for weeks regarding Lancaster, Bath and Surrey in this context. I wisely did not get involved and I'll not give my views on it here if only for the sake of brevity!
Overall, this subject has caused some heated discussion in common-rooms believe me. I remember listening to a discussion that went on for weeks regarding Lancaster, Bath and Surrey in this context. I wisely did not get involved and I'll not give my views on it here if only for the sake of brevity!
Hmm, whilst Southampton does indeed excel in Marine Sciences, my money's on Bangor. The reality is Chris that all coastal universities excel in marine sciences. It's something in the air. On thinking about it though, I once inspected an applied biology degree at Hatfield Polytechnic in 1974 that had a marine science content that could hardly be beaten. Hatfield can hardly be regarded as a coastal polytechnic!
I'd expect the LSE to excel in Economics. They have some of the leading experts in Economics amongst their staff and a unique tailor-made recruitment process for academics wishing to join.
I'd expect the LSE to excel in Economics. They have some of the leading experts in Economics amongst their staff and a unique tailor-made recruitment process for academics wishing to join.
Well at least we're agreed, TheProf, that it's not only so-called 'good' universities that can be centres of excellence.
Although it's probably not quite as bad as it used to be, there's still quite a bit of snobbishness involved when people compare degrees. For example, I've been told more than once that my maths degree is a 'Mickey Mouse' degree because it's a BEd. That's despite the fact that I sat exactly the same examination papers that the BSc students did!
Although it's probably not quite as bad as it used to be, there's still quite a bit of snobbishness involved when people compare degrees. For example, I've been told more than once that my maths degree is a 'Mickey Mouse' degree because it's a BEd. That's despite the fact that I sat exactly the same examination papers that the BSc students did!
So are there any "good" or even outstanding universities outside the Russell Group? Well, yes of course there are.
However, like it or not, annually published university guides in the THE, prospectuses, career guidance booklets, professional society literature and countless other career publications now and in the past have persistently recommended that a student should aim to obtain a place at a Russell group University. This promotion of Russell Group universities was in place when I took my "A" Levels and I'm no spring chicken.
The reasons for the promotion? Well, these would include better research sources, more likelihood of achieving a good job, more likelihood of promotion and no ceiling on salary for a outstanding graduate.
Now like it or not, this has been and always will be the future for Russell Group graduates. Society dictates that this shall be so and it's no different for Harvard, Brown and MIT graduates in the USA as long as the old-boy network continues throughout the world, nothing will change.
"Good" universities and "the others" is a direct consequence of this bias but I need to say that I'm not in favour. Apart from anything else, I haven't always spent my years walking the corridors of this hallowed Oxbridge college and I've seen both sides of the coin.
However, like it or not, annually published university guides in the THE, prospectuses, career guidance booklets, professional society literature and countless other career publications now and in the past have persistently recommended that a student should aim to obtain a place at a Russell group University. This promotion of Russell Group universities was in place when I took my "A" Levels and I'm no spring chicken.
The reasons for the promotion? Well, these would include better research sources, more likelihood of achieving a good job, more likelihood of promotion and no ceiling on salary for a outstanding graduate.
Now like it or not, this has been and always will be the future for Russell Group graduates. Society dictates that this shall be so and it's no different for Harvard, Brown and MIT graduates in the USA as long as the old-boy network continues throughout the world, nothing will change.
"Good" universities and "the others" is a direct consequence of this bias but I need to say that I'm not in favour. Apart from anything else, I haven't always spent my years walking the corridors of this hallowed Oxbridge college and I've seen both sides of the coin.
Sorry Chris, I took a break in the middle of typing my last post and you got in there before me!
I have great respect for the BEd. It shouldn't be disparaged and I've met many very competent science teachers with a BEd degree. My brother-in-law is a senior deputy head in a comp and is proud to wind his pupils up by saying he never went to uni! He graduated with a BEd from Trinity College, Carmarthen that wasn't a uni in the seventies.
I have great respect for the BEd. It shouldn't be disparaged and I've met many very competent science teachers with a BEd degree. My brother-in-law is a senior deputy head in a comp and is proud to wind his pupils up by saying he never went to uni! He graduated with a BEd from Trinity College, Carmarthen that wasn't a uni in the seventies.
