Probate

[greeneyedmonster]

My mother in law, who was in a council property, died recently and we have just received a letter stating that a balance of £245 has been left on her account. I have no idea how they arrived at that sum as her rent was always paid but that's another story!
I have advised them that my mother in law had no estate and did not even have a bank account so now they are saying we need to apply for probate to prove she had no estate. From what I have read, it seems the costs of obtaining probate would far outweigh what was owed so the whole thing seems mad.

Can anyone advise me on this please?

[buildersmate]

You can understand where they are coming from. A person with no bank account at all, who deals entirely in cash, in this day and age is a rarity.
Perhaps if you can explain to them how the regular expenses like council tax, utilities bills of hers were being paid by her it might help to back up your case. Plus an explanation as to how her funeral expenses were met (by a relative perhaps).
Agree that it seems unnecessary to have to have a grant of probate if assets were indeed such a low figure.

[factor-fiction]

Are you the executor? It's the responsibility of the executor rather than family members (unless the exec is family) to inform the council.

[bednobs]

it seems unlikely that someone who didn't even have £250 in their estate had a will FF

[bednobs]

how can someone with no bank account get paid benefits? i thought it was essential nowadays

[greeneyedmonster]

We probably sound very naive but as she only had her pension we didn't even consider that a will would be necessary. She didn't have a bank account, mainly because there was no bank in her village and she didn't trust ATMs, so she really did deal solely in cash. She paid her bills at the Post Office in cash and when she became poorly either I or my husband would do it. We gave her belongings to her church, charities and family members so there was literally no money left over. Obviously the council would like their money but it seems a bit ludicrous having to apply for probate to prove that she had nothing. How on earth could they do that? I dare say they could check that she had no bank account and that she paid her bills in cash-but is it really worth the hassle for the amount concerned? We paid for her funeral so I think it's unfair that we may have to stump up for this as well.

[factor-fiction]

If there is no will and no executor then I suggest you just tell the council the matter is nothing to do with you. I'm not sure though how she received her pension and whether it has been stopped- are you sure someone has notified DWP of her death?

[ladyalex]

I think I would get some advice on this from your Citizens' Advice Bureau.
In the meantime as, if I am reading your posts correctly, it is the Council who is owed the money, I would pursue a policy of masterly inactivity.
If they want their money, then the onus should be on them to prove who should pay it.....but that is just my opinion. As I said, try the CAB.

[greeneyedmonster]

Yes the DWP are aware-we have done all of what we considered the necessary things (informing DWP, registering the death, arranging the funeral etc) but we simply did not think that she would have needed a will/probate as she had no estate.
I'm not sure exactly how it works but the council have passed the housing side onto a private company and they are the ones asking for the money back. They told me to contact the council to arrange probate. I queried this because as far as I was aware this requires a solicitor but was told that no, the council would deal with it...which of course they don't! The girl I spoke to at the council said I should just write a letter, in the form of a statement and send it to the company concerned (similar to your suggestion Ladyalex) and hopefully that will suffice so hopefully she's right. Thanks for your help everyone...I'm just off to write my will!!

[Peter Pedant]

I think you need a visit to the CAB

Clearly they are saying the rent account was in arrears. and that is a debt on the estate - the issue is that you have disposed of the contents of the house and so could be thought to have taken a hand in estate management. Councils sometimes charge rent until the key is given up and clearly she cant have paid that rent.

In terms of the council handing over a debt of a dead person to a debt recovery company - yup not surprised at all. You dont pay council workers to have brains.

You will be aware that debts die with the person - but sometimes people take the assets and leave the debts which is not what it is about. The estate has assets and if they are used to pay off debts and there isnt enough so there are still some debts... THEN the debts die with the estate.

I think you need advice from the CAB as clearly we have come in the middle of a dispute and dont know what has gone before

[themas]

I've seen something recently saying that a lot of Councils and other social housing providers specify 4 weeks notice from the tenant in their tenancy agreements, & apply it if the tenant who was the sole occupier of the property dies. To me, this seems very unreasonable but it could be where this alleged debt has come from.

I suggest you write to the company setting out the position. However, I don't see how she could have got her pension (& any other benefits) without an account of some sort. She cannot have received them in cash. Did she not have a Post Office account into which they were paid? If so, you could provide statements from that.

[dzug2]

She cannot have received them in cash.

It is possible - or it was a few years ago - to get a weekly giro cheque to cash at a Post Office. It may have changed.

You had to be very determined and resist pressure, subtle and otherwise, to open that post office account or other bank account

[dzug2]

xx From what I have read, it seems the costs of obtaining probate would far outweigh what was owed so the whole thing seems mad. xx

Agree it's mad but probate is free for estates under £5000 if you DIY rather than use a solicitor

[Deskdiary]

Personally........I'd do nothing.

There is no estate.

The person responsible for the debt is dead.

If it were me I'd just ignore the letters on the basis I am not responsible for the debt.

[Peter Pedant]

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/relationships_w/relationships_death_and_wills_e/dealing_with_the_financial_affairs_of_someone_who_has_died.htm

this may be useful

keep to letters of administration
and scroll down to debt

esp where it says they cant recover debts from you

The reason why you need professional advice is that you arent required to deal with your mothers estate but may opt to do so

There are pros and cons to this but it seems clear they cant come after you for your mothers debt unless there are letters of administration - which you dont have

that's my view - you need proper advice

[bednobs]

or, alternatively if you don't want the hassle, just pay the £245

[Barmaid]

As a creditor, the Council can apply for Probate. Tell them to sling their hook and dont pay it.

[jennyjoan]

that's a good answer from Barmaid -

Myself, I always thought that the debt died with the death of the debtor.

[factor-fiction]

Myself, I always thought that the debt died with the death of the debtor.

No, the debts fall on the estate, but if the estate is too small then then the debt effectively dies.

[jennyjoan]

there ya go Factor - got some of it right. No estate so debt dies.

[Peter Pedant]

Do as Barmaid says
[free advice from a chancery barrister]

Hi Barmaid nice to see you posting and correcting all us amateurs !