Private Eye Eye Crossword 794 Tuesday...
Crosswords1 min ago
Affray/gbh
I was arrested last night for affray. I punched two people but one fell and split his head open. I've been told the charge may change to gbh because the size of the wound and im also caught on camra punching him for the second time whilst he was on the floor. On the camra this all looks unprovoked.. I've only ever been arrested before for drink driving and two accounts of drunk and disorderly... Any idea what punishment im looking to get? Thanks
Answers
Best Answer
No best answer has yet been selected by jp898. Once a best answer has been selected, it will be shown here.
For more on marking an answer as the "Best Answer", please visit our FAQ.
Depends on what you are charged with, GBH is more serious than affray.
There are 2 versions of GBH Section 20 or Section 18. S18 is the most serious of the 2 and is always a prison sentence. Punching the person a second time when he was on the floor may possibly be classed as S18. You need a lawyer!
There are 2 versions of GBH Section 20 or Section 18. S18 is the most serious of the 2 and is always a prison sentence. Punching the person a second time when he was on the floor may possibly be classed as S18. You need a lawyer!
-- answer removed --
I am slightly confused here, it is normal to charge the most serious possible offence first and then reduce it if necessary. I would have expected a charge of GBH first and then a reduction to ABH if the situation turned out to be less serious. Have you actually been charged or just bailed for further investigations?
You will normally get bail even for S18.
It being unprovoked makes your offence worse , as you can not claim self defence. Also being drunk when you committed the offence will make the case against you worse especially as you have 'previous' for drunk and disorderly!
You really do need a lawyer ASAP ! I can see this going to S18.
It being unprovoked makes your offence worse , as you can not claim self defence. Also being drunk when you committed the offence will make the case against you worse especially as you have 'previous' for drunk and disorderly!
You really do need a lawyer ASAP ! I can see this going to S18.
If the guy drops his charges can I still get done?... The thing is the cctv is so clear Im not sure if I can get much defence.. I didn't think much of my solicitor they gave me either he just advised me to say no coment all the way through, when I could have said why I done it ( because certain things where said and I hit one because I felt he was about to over power my mate)... so in your opinion you recon I'll go down for a couple months?
>>>If the guy drops his charges can I still get done?
As far as the Crown Prosecution Service is concerned, offences such as GBH always have TWO 'victims'. One is, obviously, the person who was injured but the other is 'public order' (or, if you prefer 'the law of the land'). Even if the (physical) victim doesn't seek a prosecution the CPS will still seek a conviction unless there is then insufficient evidence for them to do so. (Given that there'sclear CCTV evidence, that would seem to be unlikely).
The test for 'GBH' (either as a 'Section 20' offence or a 'Section 18' one) is simply based upon the severity of the injuries sustained. For a GBH conviction those injuries must be 'really serious', with the CPS website giving the following examples of what can constitute 'really serious':
injury resulting in permanent disability, loss of sensory function or visible disfigurement;
broken or displaced limbs or bones, including fractured skull, compound fractures, broken cheek bone, jaw, ribs, etc;
injuries which cause substantial loss of blood, usually necessitating a transfusion or result in lengthy treatment or incapacity;
serious psychiatric injury. As with assault occasioning actual bodily harm, appropriate expert evidence is essential to prove the injury
If the injuries are (as above) serious enough for a 'GBH' charge, the CPS then have to decide whether 'with intent' can be added to the charge (raising it from 'Section 20' to 'Section 18'). The CPS website states:
"Factors that may indicate the specific intent include:
a repeated or planned attack;
deliberate selection of a weapon or adaptation of an article to cause injury, such as breaking a glass before an attack;
making prior threats;
using an offensive weapon against, or kicking the victim's head"
Source:
http://
When someone is convicted of GBH (either as Section 20 or Section 18 "with intent"), the judge then has to decide whther the offence falls within 'Category 1', 'Category 2' or 'Category 3'.
It's Category 1 if both 'harm' and 'culpability' are 'high'. If only one of those factors is 'high', and the other low, it's 'Category 2'. If they're both 'low' it's 'Category 3'.
The ONLY type of GBH conviction that can result in a non-custodial offence (unless the judge finds exceptional reasons to enable him breach the official guidelines) is a Section 20 one at Category 3. Otherwise imprisonment is a certainty.
Staying with Section 20, the 'starting point' sentence for Category 2 is 18 months imprisonment. For Category 1 it's 3 years.
If the conviction is under Section 18, the 'starting point' sentences are as follows:
Category 3: 4 years
Category 2: 6 years
Category 1: 12 years.
Source:
http://
Based upon your account of things, your best chance of avoiding imprisonment is to hope that you solicitor/barrister can get the charge dropped to 'ABH'. However you still need to be aware that 'affray' (on its own, before any actual assualt charge is added on) often results in a custodial sentence.
As far as the Crown Prosecution Service is concerned, offences such as GBH always have TWO 'victims'. One is, obviously, the person who was injured but the other is 'public order' (or, if you prefer 'the law of the land'). Even if the (physical) victim doesn't seek a prosecution the CPS will still seek a conviction unless there is then insufficient evidence for them to do so. (Given that there'sclear CCTV evidence, that would seem to be unlikely).
The test for 'GBH' (either as a 'Section 20' offence or a 'Section 18' one) is simply based upon the severity of the injuries sustained. For a GBH conviction those injuries must be 'really serious', with the CPS website giving the following examples of what can constitute 'really serious':
injury resulting in permanent disability, loss of sensory function or visible disfigurement;
broken or displaced limbs or bones, including fractured skull, compound fractures, broken cheek bone, jaw, ribs, etc;
injuries which cause substantial loss of blood, usually necessitating a transfusion or result in lengthy treatment or incapacity;
serious psychiatric injury. As with assault occasioning actual bodily harm, appropriate expert evidence is essential to prove the injury
If the injuries are (as above) serious enough for a 'GBH' charge, the CPS then have to decide whether 'with intent' can be added to the charge (raising it from 'Section 20' to 'Section 18'). The CPS website states:
"Factors that may indicate the specific intent include:
a repeated or planned attack;
deliberate selection of a weapon or adaptation of an article to cause injury, such as breaking a glass before an attack;
making prior threats;
using an offensive weapon against, or kicking the victim's head"
Source:
http://
When someone is convicted of GBH (either as Section 20 or Section 18 "with intent"), the judge then has to decide whther the offence falls within 'Category 1', 'Category 2' or 'Category 3'.
It's Category 1 if both 'harm' and 'culpability' are 'high'. If only one of those factors is 'high', and the other low, it's 'Category 2'. If they're both 'low' it's 'Category 3'.
The ONLY type of GBH conviction that can result in a non-custodial offence (unless the judge finds exceptional reasons to enable him breach the official guidelines) is a Section 20 one at Category 3. Otherwise imprisonment is a certainty.
Staying with Section 20, the 'starting point' sentence for Category 2 is 18 months imprisonment. For Category 1 it's 3 years.
If the conviction is under Section 18, the 'starting point' sentences are as follows:
Category 3: 4 years
Category 2: 6 years
Category 1: 12 years.
Source:
http://
Based upon your account of things, your best chance of avoiding imprisonment is to hope that you solicitor/barrister can get the charge dropped to 'ABH'. However you still need to be aware that 'affray' (on its own, before any actual assualt charge is added on) often results in a custodial sentence.
-- answer removed --
-- answer removed --
-- answer removed --
>>>no chance il get off with a fine a community service then?
If your account of things is entirely accurate then there's actually quite a good chance of you avoiding custody, simply because you appear to have described fairly low level 'ABH' injuries. (Nothing you've written justifies either type of 'GBH' charge). The added offence of 'affray' won't help but around 100 hours of Community Service might be a possible outcome.
If your account of things is entirely accurate then there's actually quite a good chance of you avoiding custody, simply because you appear to have described fairly low level 'ABH' injuries. (Nothing you've written justifies either type of 'GBH' charge). The added offence of 'affray' won't help but around 100 hours of Community Service might be a possible outcome.
-- answer removed --
No you don't get the opportunity to remove answers, jp. The site's editor does that if (s)he thinks the content breaches the site's rules.
These questions are always difficult to answer because, as you have probably noted from earlier contributions, opinions can vary wildly because we don't have all the information that the CPS would have (when deciding to charge you) or that the court would have (when deciding on a sentence).
The general advice that has been offered is sound (i.e. S18 is almost inevitably a custodial sentence, S20 usually is though may not be. ABH often results in a non-custodial sentence if the incident is at the lower end of the scale of seriousness, but the incident you describe does not, on the face of it, appear to be so. Affray (which is Section 3 of the Public Order Act) sometimes does. Actually from your description of the events I would think it unlikely in the extreme that the charge will be Affray. It seems you have, on your own admission, inflicted some serious injuries which must be dealt with but you really ought to wait until you have been charged. Repeated attacks (you admit you punched the victim a second time whilst he was on the floor) certainly shows an element of "intent" (i.e. S18).
Your solicitor did you no favours when advising you to give a "no comment" interview. Why they do it I just don't know. You may recall the warning you would have been given ("...but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention, when questioned, something you later rely on in court"). This means anything you mention if and when you are interviewed again in a few weeks time may be seen as something you may have chosen to "cook up" having had the benefit to think about the matter for a while. Still, what's done is done.
Since the police have seen fit to release you on bail, when you do eventually appear at the Magistrates' court you should be similarly released if an adjournment is required (which it almost certainly will be whatever the charge). You can only be denied bail if it can be shown that there is a serious risk that you may either (a) abscond (i.e. do not turn up at court for the next hearing), (b) commit further offences or (c) interfere with witnesses. For this reason, despite Blackadder's well intentioned advice, I would not contact any of the alleged victims if I were you. It may be construed that you are trying to influence their evidence (even if you mean well). Any regret you may have will not influence the charging decision made by the CPS. It will certainly have an effect on any sentence you may be subject to but your remorse can be formally offered at the appropriate point in court.
These questions are always difficult to answer because, as you have probably noted from earlier contributions, opinions can vary wildly because we don't have all the information that the CPS would have (when deciding to charge you) or that the court would have (when deciding on a sentence).
The general advice that has been offered is sound (i.e. S18 is almost inevitably a custodial sentence, S20 usually is though may not be. ABH often results in a non-custodial sentence if the incident is at the lower end of the scale of seriousness, but the incident you describe does not, on the face of it, appear to be so. Affray (which is Section 3 of the Public Order Act) sometimes does. Actually from your description of the events I would think it unlikely in the extreme that the charge will be Affray. It seems you have, on your own admission, inflicted some serious injuries which must be dealt with but you really ought to wait until you have been charged. Repeated attacks (you admit you punched the victim a second time whilst he was on the floor) certainly shows an element of "intent" (i.e. S18).
Your solicitor did you no favours when advising you to give a "no comment" interview. Why they do it I just don't know. You may recall the warning you would have been given ("...but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention, when questioned, something you later rely on in court"). This means anything you mention if and when you are interviewed again in a few weeks time may be seen as something you may have chosen to "cook up" having had the benefit to think about the matter for a while. Still, what's done is done.
Since the police have seen fit to release you on bail, when you do eventually appear at the Magistrates' court you should be similarly released if an adjournment is required (which it almost certainly will be whatever the charge). You can only be denied bail if it can be shown that there is a serious risk that you may either (a) abscond (i.e. do not turn up at court for the next hearing), (b) commit further offences or (c) interfere with witnesses. For this reason, despite Blackadder's well intentioned advice, I would not contact any of the alleged victims if I were you. It may be construed that you are trying to influence their evidence (even if you mean well). Any regret you may have will not influence the charging decision made by the CPS. It will certainly have an effect on any sentence you may be subject to but your remorse can be formally offered at the appropriate point in court.
Jp, try not to let the fact that you were arrested for affray confuse matters. It really doesn't matter what offence you told you were being arrested for at the scene as long as you get the idea why you are being detained.
It is common for police to arrest for affray at the scene of violence / disorder as technically you don't have rely on victims to make a formal complaint to prosecute the accused (there are other issues) but like I say it really makes no odds what was said.
When the police have sufficient info to present to the CPS they will decide what offences to prosecute for (if any) and more often than not it's usually the assault or the affray but can be both together. If the victims refused to cooperate with the police/ prosecution then they can still consider a charge for affray.
Re remand in custody: "Since the police have seen fit to release you on bail, when you do eventually appear at the Magistrates' court ...." Same advice applies at the police station if informed you are to be prosecuted (charged). As you have already been granted bail you are very unlikely to be remanded in custody to appear at first Mags court hearing.
It is common for police to arrest for affray at the scene of violence / disorder as technically you don't have rely on victims to make a formal complaint to prosecute the accused (there are other issues) but like I say it really makes no odds what was said.
When the police have sufficient info to present to the CPS they will decide what offences to prosecute for (if any) and more often than not it's usually the assault or the affray but can be both together. If the victims refused to cooperate with the police/ prosecution then they can still consider a charge for affray.
Re remand in custody: "Since the police have seen fit to release you on bail, when you do eventually appear at the Magistrates' court ...." Same advice applies at the police station if informed you are to be prosecuted (charged). As you have already been granted bail you are very unlikely to be remanded in custody to appear at first Mags court hearing.
