Festive Drinks Quiz - 5 January
Quizzes & Puzzles1 min ago
Self defence on a bouncer - now charged with ABH & Criminal Damage
NEED ADVICE FROM A CONCERNED GIRLFRIEND.b/friend Sam was trying to take promo badge off his shirt (that I had put on)in a club&a bouncer told him to put his shirt back on,sam told the bouncer that he was trying to get the badge off,bouncer said put your shirt on now.Sam did do, bouncer then said to sam who the f**k do you think you are&went ahead and threw him out of the club.
Once outside sam moved away frm the door waiting for me to come out (I was not far behind him),within a matter of seconds the bouncer who chucked sam out was walking towards him, fist clenched. Sam had not said anything to him and was away from the club&door,he kept walking backwards and the bouncer continued to walk towards him,sam thought he was going to get attacked&hit the bouncer who fell to the ground.sam did NOT continue hitting him.It was one punch, the other bouncers then jumped onto sam, punched and bit him. During this a wing mirror of a car was damaged, which sam is charged for.Sam got arrested & now it's going to crown court.
sam did admit he hit the bouncer but it was self defence.following day we went to town to see what CCTV there was so hopefully it could pick up sam moving away. there were 2 camera,got told that one was facing the floor!,other caught the last part of the fight &shows the bouncers feet heading away from the club.The hit has not been caught on CCTV.There are no independent witnesses. it's bouncers word against sam's.seems like the bouncer is trying to get personal injury claim.it's affecting me & my work. I've never been in trouble with police so have no idea how the process works.
Should I write to the judge? What could we do to get justice? It seems like in the eyes of the law you are guilty until proven innocent! It's not like Sam&even though he is a big guy he has never hit anyone&has no convictions, he could lose his job if found guilty.
ANY advice is really,appreciated. Many Thanks in advance
Once outside sam moved away frm the door waiting for me to come out (I was not far behind him),within a matter of seconds the bouncer who chucked sam out was walking towards him, fist clenched. Sam had not said anything to him and was away from the club&door,he kept walking backwards and the bouncer continued to walk towards him,sam thought he was going to get attacked&hit the bouncer who fell to the ground.sam did NOT continue hitting him.It was one punch, the other bouncers then jumped onto sam, punched and bit him. During this a wing mirror of a car was damaged, which sam is charged for.Sam got arrested & now it's going to crown court.
sam did admit he hit the bouncer but it was self defence.following day we went to town to see what CCTV there was so hopefully it could pick up sam moving away. there were 2 camera,got told that one was facing the floor!,other caught the last part of the fight &shows the bouncers feet heading away from the club.The hit has not been caught on CCTV.There are no independent witnesses. it's bouncers word against sam's.seems like the bouncer is trying to get personal injury claim.it's affecting me & my work. I've never been in trouble with police so have no idea how the process works.
Should I write to the judge? What could we do to get justice? It seems like in the eyes of the law you are guilty until proven innocent! It's not like Sam&even though he is a big guy he has never hit anyone&has no convictions, he could lose his job if found guilty.
ANY advice is really,appreciated. Many Thanks in advance
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im very sorry to say this,but as sam hit the bouncer first he therefore has assaulted the bouncer,he does not really have a leg to stand on,i know its not fair as he most probably would have got beaten up by them anyhow,he cannot claim self defence as he threw the first punch,so he will just have to put his version of events to the court and hope for the best,if you are going to crown court,it must have already been to magistrates court,did he opt for trial or did they send it for trial. try and find out if there were any witnesses to it,if need be put a ad in the local paper,try and discredit the clubs bouncers,try and find out if they have been heavy handed with other people as they can be,other then that,good luck.
Did Sam go to hospital with his injuries?
Were any photos taken of his injuries - the punches and the bite would leave marks.
Sadly it is hard to claim self defence when he threw the first punch.
What is he charged with - just criminal damage? I can't see how this would stick as there is no intent - it was accidental.
Were any photos taken of his injuries - the punches and the bite would leave marks.
Sadly it is hard to claim self defence when he threw the first punch.
What is he charged with - just criminal damage? I can't see how this would stick as there is no intent - it was accidental.
Hi Ethel,
Sam didn't go to the hospital, the police took pictures of his injuries and I did when he came home from the station.
In regards to your point of it being hard to claim self defence, would the point that Sam was moving back and away from the situation not help to support the fact that it was self defence?
In regards to the car, he has been charged with criminal damage (apparently he can be charged because he was being reckless!)
Thank you for your comments, it helps to get different perspective
Sam didn't go to the hospital, the police took pictures of his injuries and I did when he came home from the station.
In regards to your point of it being hard to claim self defence, would the point that Sam was moving back and away from the situation not help to support the fact that it was self defence?
In regards to the car, he has been charged with criminal damage (apparently he can be charged because he was being reckless!)
Thank you for your comments, it helps to get different perspective
a pre emptive strike does not deny the defence of self defence altho the Courts generally prefer people to leave than to fight. presumably he has a solicitor and barrister who will advise? worth a run in front of a jury on the few facts you have given. there may be CCTV frm the street if the club's own is useless.
criminal damage can indeed be reckless.
you may be called on to give evidence so write down what you remember in as much detail as you canwhile it is still fresh. also you shuold make sure you record when the photograph was taken of his injuries althoguh the police doctor will be able to verify if he saw one when he was there.
bounceres are sadly often alleged to be violent unccessarily so a jury may well be sympathetic. maybe too early but if he has no previous convitions maybe start thinking abotu people you can get to write charcter evidence for him - old employers/ ideally poeple of good standing in the community to say he's not violent etc etc
should avoid a prison sentence if he does get convicted but I can't say strongly engouh that that is not intended nor should be taken as any sort of guarantee as it DOES pass the custody threshold and will be available to a sentencing judge
criminal damage can indeed be reckless.
you may be called on to give evidence so write down what you remember in as much detail as you canwhile it is still fresh. also you shuold make sure you record when the photograph was taken of his injuries althoguh the police doctor will be able to verify if he saw one when he was there.
bounceres are sadly often alleged to be violent unccessarily so a jury may well be sympathetic. maybe too early but if he has no previous convitions maybe start thinking abotu people you can get to write charcter evidence for him - old employers/ ideally poeple of good standing in the community to say he's not violent etc etc
should avoid a prison sentence if he does get convicted but I can't say strongly engouh that that is not intended nor should be taken as any sort of guarantee as it DOES pass the custody threshold and will be available to a sentencing judge
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Thank you so much for your advice blondegirly. Sam was trying to leave, he was away from the club and away from the door, the bouncer left his door area and was coming towards sam. Sam didn't want to have his back to the bouncer just in case he hit him from behind so he was kinda running backwards and hit to move the bouncer away from him.
There was some vital evidence the police didn't get, there was a CCTV camara on a pub opposite, we told the police about this and when they came to take my witness statement they said the camara at the pub was a dummy, we went to the pub and ask the landlady to find out and she said it's not a dummy, the evidence was taped over!(they only keep the recording for 3 days).
Once again thank you for your advice, I'm aware that it's only advice and not set in stone. Appreciate it.
There was some vital evidence the police didn't get, there was a CCTV camara on a pub opposite, we told the police about this and when they came to take my witness statement they said the camara at the pub was a dummy, we went to the pub and ask the landlady to find out and she said it's not a dummy, the evidence was taped over!(they only keep the recording for 3 days).
Once again thank you for your advice, I'm aware that it's only advice and not set in stone. Appreciate it.
Has Sam elected to go to Crown Court or was it regarded by the magistrates as too serious for them to deal with? I would guess the former since the injuries appear to have been minor.
In any event it is most important that you see a solicitor and Sam is represented in court. It is not completely one person's word against another: you were a witness and can testify on his behalf.
No point in writing to the judge. Write down all the facts as you saw them (to refresh your memory) and then give evidence truthfully. If what you say is the unvarnished truth the self-defence argument may well run. However it's complicated legally and you do need expert advice.
In any event it is most important that you see a solicitor and Sam is represented in court. It is not completely one person's word against another: you were a witness and can testify on his behalf.
No point in writing to the judge. Write down all the facts as you saw them (to refresh your memory) and then give evidence truthfully. If what you say is the unvarnished truth the self-defence argument may well run. However it's complicated legally and you do need expert advice.
Thanks for your comments Normanthedog, for some weird reason your comments have only just appeared on the site. I can appreciate what you are saying but do you have to wait to be hit to hit back in self defence? You are right Sam would of got beaten up badly if he had not hit first. The police and solicitor decided that it would go straight to Crown. There are no more additional witnesses, it even went in the paper a few weeks ago. Thanks for your advice I will write down the stuff they were saying to sam (eg trying to get him into a room before the police came) to try and discredit them. thanks once again for your advice.
Thank you vesper 99 and rosojoly for your advice, I am very grateful. We have got a solicitor, they seem quite good (it's the firm that was on duty the night sam got arrested, I'm going to go though all the statements and facts with a fine toothcomb too.
I know that I will have to get professional advice but I wanted to get advice from people who use this website and who have experienced this or work with police/courts.
The fustrating thing is that we are not lying and we are telling the truth, it seems like the police believe the bouncer rather than sam because the bouncer had a black eye!
Thank you all for all your advice, this is the first time I have used this website and all your comments are helful.
I know that I will have to get professional advice but I wanted to get advice from people who use this website and who have experienced this or work with police/courts.
The fustrating thing is that we are not lying and we are telling the truth, it seems like the police believe the bouncer rather than sam because the bouncer had a black eye!
Thank you all for all your advice, this is the first time I have used this website and all your comments are helful.
someone hit my husband first and my husband is being charged with ABH. Crazy world, so he is also due to go to crown. All i will say though, in yesturdays local paper a guy admitted punching someone first as he thought he was goina to get hit and it was aquited so I wish u both all the best. There maybe some light at the end of the tunnel.
Your boyfriend can still claim self defence even if he struck the first blow. He must be able to show that he feared for his own safety and that the force he used was reasonable in the circumstances.
The CPS website quotes this....
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.
It will all come down to proving he thought he was in imminent danger of being attacked, and that the force he used to prevent it was reasonable force. Don't forget that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution - they must prove that either he was not acting in defence of himself, or failing that, that the force used was not reasonable.
The CPS website quotes this....
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.
It will all come down to proving he thought he was in imminent danger of being attacked, and that the force he used to prevent it was reasonable force. Don't forget that the burden of proof lies with the prosecution - they must prove that either he was not acting in defence of himself, or failing that, that the force used was not reasonable.
LittleMissxx thanks for your posting, hopefully the end of the tunnel will come sooner rather than later.
Zebedee1691 - thank you for the quote you found for me. I know that we are going to have to make sure we put across everything to show that Sam was a) moving away from the situation b) was fearing for his safety so hit the bouncer to get him away from him.
Thanks for all your help. I will post the result of the court case when we find out....might take six months!
Zebedee1691 - thank you for the quote you found for me. I know that we are going to have to make sure we put across everything to show that Sam was a) moving away from the situation b) was fearing for his safety so hit the bouncer to get him away from him.
Thanks for all your help. I will post the result of the court case when we find out....might take six months!
Of course he can plead self defence.
If he was in a genuine fear of his own or somebody elses safety - he can plead self defence. Just being thrown out of a club for no reason, then watiing for you is not threatening to anybody and if a bouncer came at me with clenched fists - I'd suspect that he wasn't going to just talk about it ? You'd just been thrown out - so he had been physical with you. Then is it fair to say several bouncers should then attack you for you trying to defend yourself ? I'd say not - I think you have a good chance if you can somehow persuade the court that it WAS self defence. If your boyfriend has no previous and is of good character then - often bouncers can''t be bothered to turn up and give evidence or if they do - you often find they have previous convictions that can discredit their version of events. I'd see it through if I were you.
If he was in a genuine fear of his own or somebody elses safety - he can plead self defence. Just being thrown out of a club for no reason, then watiing for you is not threatening to anybody and if a bouncer came at me with clenched fists - I'd suspect that he wasn't going to just talk about it ? You'd just been thrown out - so he had been physical with you. Then is it fair to say several bouncers should then attack you for you trying to defend yourself ? I'd say not - I think you have a good chance if you can somehow persuade the court that it WAS self defence. If your boyfriend has no previous and is of good character then - often bouncers can''t be bothered to turn up and give evidence or if they do - you often find they have previous convictions that can discredit their version of events. I'd see it through if I were you.
My boyfriend is up in Crown Court on Thursday for ABH, I'll post back here when his trial is over and let you know what sentence he gets. I know it's totally different circumstances but I know what it's like to be worrying about what will happen and for me, any information about the outcome is helpful. So, as I say, I'll let you know how it ends up.
Don't know if you're still checking back here but just incase you ever do: My boyfriend went to crown court on Thursday for ABH.
He was accused of hitting and kicking a man to the head, but the CCTV proved that he couldn't have done this. So, he was offered a plea bargain: If he pleaded guilty to punching this man 3 times, he wouldn't be charged with anything else.
He's sentenced in 4 weeks, his solicitor and barrister have told him that although they can't legally say it, he'll be getting community service.
Try not to worry, I'm sure that he won't be facing jail. They might offer him a plea bargain of some sort.
He was accused of hitting and kicking a man to the head, but the CCTV proved that he couldn't have done this. So, he was offered a plea bargain: If he pleaded guilty to punching this man 3 times, he wouldn't be charged with anything else.
He's sentenced in 4 weeks, his solicitor and barrister have told him that although they can't legally say it, he'll be getting community service.
Try not to worry, I'm sure that he won't be facing jail. They might offer him a plea bargain of some sort.
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