Only By Under The Table Means Would This...
Crosswords3 mins ago
section 18..what sentence to expect.
My son is 22 years old, he was convicted of GBH lastyear and recieved a two and a half year sentence, he was released on liecence after seving half of his sentence.
He went for a drink with friends when he was set upon by a gang of youths, the police have cctv footage, and 1 person was admited to hospital with eye injuries which are said to have been caused by my son, he swears he was only defending himself, and his friend caused the injuries to the other person.
He has been charged with section 18, the police are saying the injured party..may need a steel plate behind the eye, but my sons solicitor is saying he wants proof that he HAS to have a plate..etc.
My son has said he is willing to tell the courts it was his friend, because he has since gone on the run and left my son to carry the can alone, and he is not willing to do another sentence for his mates stupidity.
What sentence will he be expecting? his solicitor is saying 5 years to life..is this true.
I am a teacher in Dubai, my principal said she is willing to offer him a job as a PE teacher to get him away from the town and people he hangs around with..will a letter from her help.
What can I do to help him?
He went for a drink with friends when he was set upon by a gang of youths, the police have cctv footage, and 1 person was admited to hospital with eye injuries which are said to have been caused by my son, he swears he was only defending himself, and his friend caused the injuries to the other person.
He has been charged with section 18, the police are saying the injured party..may need a steel plate behind the eye, but my sons solicitor is saying he wants proof that he HAS to have a plate..etc.
My son has said he is willing to tell the courts it was his friend, because he has since gone on the run and left my son to carry the can alone, and he is not willing to do another sentence for his mates stupidity.
What sentence will he be expecting? his solicitor is saying 5 years to life..is this true.
I am a teacher in Dubai, my principal said she is willing to offer him a job as a PE teacher to get him away from the town and people he hangs around with..will a letter from her help.
What can I do to help him?
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(Multi-part post):
Issues of 'self defence' and 'joint enterprise' are both relevant here.
If someone attacks you, the only right you have (in the first instance) to 'self defence' is to get away from the attacker (i.e. to run away). If that's not possible, the law allows the victim to use the minimal amount of force necessary to halt the assault upon him. (e.g. he can push the attacker to the ground and then run away). If a greater degree of force is required, it must still be the absolute minimum necessary. (e.g. the victim can punch his assailant once, giving him the chance to run away. If he throws a further punch he's no longer defending himself and he is guilty of assault).
Your son needs to ask himself exactly what the CCTV shows. If it's quite clear that he was simply trying to get away from his assailant, 'self defence' will stand up in court. However, if he actively participated in the fight (even though he didn't start it) 'self defence' carries no weight whatsoever. (However, the element of provocation would carry weight when sentencing is considered).
Issues of 'self defence' and 'joint enterprise' are both relevant here.
If someone attacks you, the only right you have (in the first instance) to 'self defence' is to get away from the attacker (i.e. to run away). If that's not possible, the law allows the victim to use the minimal amount of force necessary to halt the assault upon him. (e.g. he can push the attacker to the ground and then run away). If a greater degree of force is required, it must still be the absolute minimum necessary. (e.g. the victim can punch his assailant once, giving him the chance to run away. If he throws a further punch he's no longer defending himself and he is guilty of assault).
Your son needs to ask himself exactly what the CCTV shows. If it's quite clear that he was simply trying to get away from his assailant, 'self defence' will stand up in court. However, if he actively participated in the fight (even though he didn't start it) 'self defence' carries no weight whatsoever. (However, the element of provocation would carry weight when sentencing is considered).
I'll try to explain 'joint enterprise' with an example. Let's suppose that Alf and Bert attempt to rob a bank. Things go wrong and Alf shoots a bank employee dead. Bert never fired a shot. In fact, he didn't even carry a gun and had never even handled a gun in his entire life. However, both Alf and Bert can be convicted of murder. That's because the fatality arose from their 'joint enterprise'.
It's possible that the court might take the view that your son and his friend engaged in a 'joint enterprise' when taking part in the fight. If so, your son could be convicted of GBH with intent, even if he could prove that his friend actually struck the blow which caused the injury.
It sounds like your son's solicitor might trying to get the charge to reduced to 'simple' GBH (i.e. without 'intent'), under Section 20, or even down to ABH. You can read about the differences (in terms of injuries sustained and the way in which they came about) by reading paragraphs 45 to 67 here:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_ag ainst_the_person/#P189_14382
It's possible that the court might take the view that your son and his friend engaged in a 'joint enterprise' when taking part in the fight. If so, your son could be convicted of GBH with intent, even if he could prove that his friend actually struck the blow which caused the injury.
It sounds like your son's solicitor might trying to get the charge to reduced to 'simple' GBH (i.e. without 'intent'), under Section 20, or even down to ABH. You can read about the differences (in terms of injuries sustained and the way in which they came about) by reading paragraphs 45 to 67 here:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_ag ainst_the_person/#P189_14382
As the solicitor has indicated, the maximum penalty for a Section 18 offence is life imprisonment. However, two GBH convictions in close succession might well lead to an IPP ("in the interests of public protection") sentence. This is basically the same as a life sentence. (The principal difference is that, upon release from prison, someone sentenced to 'life' is always on licence, whereas the licence period for an IPP can eventually end). Under an IPP, a tariff is set which defines the minimum period the offender must be held in prison before he might be released. However, an offender will not be released until such time as he is no longer regarded as a risk to society.
My guess is that, if convicted of GBH with intent, your son will be sentenced to either 5 to 8 years imprisonment, or an IPP with a tariff of at least 4 years.
What can you do to help him?
1. Get him to ask himself whether 'self defence' really has any chance of standing up in court. If not, a simple plea of 'not guilty' is a waste of time and would only serve to increase the possible sentence. (However, that doesn't preclude him pleading 'not guilty' to the Section 18 but 'guilty' to a lesser charge. He needs to listen to his legal advisors).
2. Get him to insist upon a case conference, where he meets with his solicitor and barrister at the same time. (Far too many defendants never even meet their barrister until they appear before the courts. He needs to discuss the matter, face to face, with his barrister now).
Chris
My guess is that, if convicted of GBH with intent, your son will be sentenced to either 5 to 8 years imprisonment, or an IPP with a tariff of at least 4 years.
What can you do to help him?
1. Get him to ask himself whether 'self defence' really has any chance of standing up in court. If not, a simple plea of 'not guilty' is a waste of time and would only serve to increase the possible sentence. (However, that doesn't preclude him pleading 'not guilty' to the Section 18 but 'guilty' to a lesser charge. He needs to listen to his legal advisors).
2. Get him to insist upon a case conference, where he meets with his solicitor and barrister at the same time. (Far too many defendants never even meet their barrister until they appear before the courts. He needs to discuss the matter, face to face, with his barrister now).
Chris
Thank you for your answer. Can he still request a conference with both solicitor and barrister even though he is back in prison. I firmly believe that his first conviction was made worse by the fact that he had never met his barrister before his appearance at crown court, and fully agree with you that many people dont.
If he does get an IPP what is the minimum sentence allowed? Also, when he does eventually get released, if he is on permenant liecence, will he be able to move to a different country..ie Dubai, where we are living or Spain where we will be retiring to.
I am going to try and talk with his solicitor today as I have left 2 messages with his secretary asking him to call me, I am still waiting, although I do understand he will be limited in what he can actually tell me.
He is with the same solicitor he was with when he got the 2 and a half year for his first offence, so I dont have much faith I'm afraid, although we were told that the well known judge was in a bad mood that day and was handing out heavy sentences to anyone who walked through the door.
If he does get an IPP what is the minimum sentence allowed? Also, when he does eventually get released, if he is on permenant liecence, will he be able to move to a different country..ie Dubai, where we are living or Spain where we will be retiring to.
I am going to try and talk with his solicitor today as I have left 2 messages with his secretary asking him to call me, I am still waiting, although I do understand he will be limited in what he can actually tell me.
He is with the same solicitor he was with when he got the 2 and a half year for his first offence, so I dont have much faith I'm afraid, although we were told that the well known judge was in a bad mood that day and was handing out heavy sentences to anyone who walked through the door.
Yes he can request a conference. Solicitors and barristers regular attend clients in prison.
You could ask for the legal aid certificate to be transferred to another firm if you are unhappy. However, doubtless counsel who represented him at the original hearing will have considered whether the sentence was appealable. I assume he formed the view it was not. So really you can't blame the solicitor if your son got a justifiable sentence for a crime for which he was convicted. However, I do understand how your perception (caused by the system) is so.
You could also get your son to write to his solicitor giving him permission to discuss the case with you which would make communication easier.
You could ask for the legal aid certificate to be transferred to another firm if you are unhappy. However, doubtless counsel who represented him at the original hearing will have considered whether the sentence was appealable. I assume he formed the view it was not. So really you can't blame the solicitor if your son got a justifiable sentence for a crime for which he was convicted. However, I do understand how your perception (caused by the system) is so.
You could also get your son to write to his solicitor giving him permission to discuss the case with you which would make communication easier.
Thanks for your reply, Drakmor.
Just so that it's clear who the real expert is around here, I'll tell you that Barmaid is a barrister. She works solely in the civil courts but (obviously) has an extremely good understanding of the way that the courts work. I'm nothing more than an amateur, with a keen interest in the workings of the law.
IPPs can only be passed where the offender would be expected to serve a minimum of 2 years in custody. See here:
http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/adviceandsup port/prison_life/lifesentencedprisoners/
Licence conditions are theoretically imposed on an individual basis. However there are certain basic rules which seem to be applied to all released offenders. One of these is that the person on licence may not travel abroad. (That's fairly logical because the offender is still technically serving a prison sentence in the UK. So it would make no sense to allow them to travel to a location outside of the jurisdiction of the UK courts, prisons and probation service).
Further to your original question as to what sentence might be imposed (and putting to one side, for the moment, the possibility of an IPP), this might be of help to you:
http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk/docs/a ssault-against-the%20person.pdf
That's the document which the judge will have before him when considering sentence. (When looking at the tables of sentences, you should remember that they apply to a first-time offender convicted after a trial. A second offence would be likely to increase the sentence. Conversely, an early guilty plea should reduce it).
Chris
Just so that it's clear who the real expert is around here, I'll tell you that Barmaid is a barrister. She works solely in the civil courts but (obviously) has an extremely good understanding of the way that the courts work. I'm nothing more than an amateur, with a keen interest in the workings of the law.
IPPs can only be passed where the offender would be expected to serve a minimum of 2 years in custody. See here:
http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/adviceandsup port/prison_life/lifesentencedprisoners/
Licence conditions are theoretically imposed on an individual basis. However there are certain basic rules which seem to be applied to all released offenders. One of these is that the person on licence may not travel abroad. (That's fairly logical because the offender is still technically serving a prison sentence in the UK. So it would make no sense to allow them to travel to a location outside of the jurisdiction of the UK courts, prisons and probation service).
Further to your original question as to what sentence might be imposed (and putting to one side, for the moment, the possibility of an IPP), this might be of help to you:
http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk/docs/a ssault-against-the%20person.pdf
That's the document which the judge will have before him when considering sentence. (When looking at the tables of sentences, you should remember that they apply to a first-time offender convicted after a trial. A second offence would be likely to increase the sentence. Conversely, an early guilty plea should reduce it).
Chris
Thanks so much for your fantastic replies. I have spoken with his solicitor today and as my son is at the local magistrates on friday via video link he is going to ask for his permission to talk with me about the case.
I asked him about a conference visit and he said one is pending, and also about the joint enterprise, giving the fact that the person who dealt the damaging blow is now on the run, he said ah! yes, but..there is cctv footage of my son, so obviously I am going to find that he has infact been a lot more involved than first thought.
Can I just ask Barmaid...is this too serious to submit letters to the courts of a job offer in the UAE,
I know this sounds stupid, but also, the army visited the prison lastweek, my son always showed interest in joining, he was talking to one of the seniors and because my son is a big, strong 6 footer, he said..it's such a shame your in here, the army could do with lads like you infact there are more prisoners in the UK than soldiers serving overseas. If my son showed an interest in signing up for a stint in the armed forces would this help?
I would like to thank you both once again for your helpful advice, if you ever fancy a holiday in Abu Dhabi let me know.
I asked him about a conference visit and he said one is pending, and also about the joint enterprise, giving the fact that the person who dealt the damaging blow is now on the run, he said ah! yes, but..there is cctv footage of my son, so obviously I am going to find that he has infact been a lot more involved than first thought.
Can I just ask Barmaid...is this too serious to submit letters to the courts of a job offer in the UAE,
I know this sounds stupid, but also, the army visited the prison lastweek, my son always showed interest in joining, he was talking to one of the seniors and because my son is a big, strong 6 footer, he said..it's such a shame your in here, the army could do with lads like you infact there are more prisoners in the UK than soldiers serving overseas. If my son showed an interest in signing up for a stint in the armed forces would this help?
I would like to thank you both once again for your helpful advice, if you ever fancy a holiday in Abu Dhabi let me know.
Hi There.
Ive recently found out that my son is facing GBH charge..not the section 18 as I thought..all circumstances are the same.
Ive also read in the evenings paper that the guy who threw the punch and wasnt on the cctv has commited another 3 offences since my son was sent back to jail, he got off with a six month discharge.
We also found out that the guy with the injuries has 3 witnesses..all friends 1 military police who are willing to say they were all innocent and my son for no reason hit him.
Would any of this change your earlier thoughts on the case.
Also he has been away 8 weeks now and the police have still not sent the cctv to the solicitor..he said yesterday that he will have to apply to the courts to get it realised. any ideas why they are keeping hold of it.
Ive recently found out that my son is facing GBH charge..not the section 18 as I thought..all circumstances are the same.
Ive also read in the evenings paper that the guy who threw the punch and wasnt on the cctv has commited another 3 offences since my son was sent back to jail, he got off with a six month discharge.
We also found out that the guy with the injuries has 3 witnesses..all friends 1 military police who are willing to say they were all innocent and my son for no reason hit him.
Would any of this change your earlier thoughts on the case.
Also he has been away 8 weeks now and the police have still not sent the cctv to the solicitor..he said yesterday that he will have to apply to the courts to get it realised. any ideas why they are keeping hold of it.
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