Contradiction of Contracts

[Lynnspar]

I was made redundant / retired from my previous job just over 7 years ago and received an immediate pension.
My present employers have now sent a circular stating that anybody receiving a pension from another employer or receiving income fom a second job must advise the amount to the Human Resources Department.
Under the terms of the redundancy agreement from my previous employer I am not allowed to give details of my pension to anybody other to the Inland Revenue and my partner.
I advised my present employer to contact my previous employer and they have received a letter from my previous employer saying they are unable to provide this information.
I know there was a fraud investigation in my present department which may have prompted my present employers to want this information as myself and 2 other employees are receiving pensions from previous employers and our houses / cars etc could not be paid for from our present salaries.
I can not afford to go against the terms of my redundancy agreement as my previous employers will be paying most of my income for the rest of my life and I have only got 3 years maximum to work for my present employers.
Does anybody know if my present employers have any right to know my pension income from my previous employers.

Lynn

[johnny37]

Not without your permission or a court order. For one thing it contravenes the Data Protection Act.

[woofgang]

Have you got (you must have!) the redundancy agreement terms in writing? You could show this to hr, maybe give them a copy, it might help.

[boxtops]

This sounds very odd - the only people (IMO) who need to know about other pensions are the tax office.

I have a pension from a previous job, and an AVC paying out, but my current employer is still letting me pay into our own pension scheme, any other income I receive is none of their business.

I can't imagine why they are asking for this information - IMO you would be within your rights to ask them why they are asking for this confidential data about something which is nothing to do with them.

[Lynnspar]

Hi Woolfgang

I do have my redundancy agreement from my previous employer.
Again there is a term in it saying I must not show the agreement to anybody other than my partner or legal advisor.
It does not detail my pension but it does detail my redundancy payment.

boxtops

I am paying into my present employers pension scheme and AVC'S.
My tax, NI and pension contributions and AVC'S come to nearly 55% of my salary.
I also paid AVC'S into my previous employers scheme.

Lynn

[buildersmate]

I agree with both Boxtops and Woofgang - this request is very odd.
I think you should stick by your present stance and say no more.
The only reason why I can think of that the present employer wants this information is to ensure that your tax deduction is correct - since it is a normal process that one's persoanl allowance gets 'consumed' by any pension that is being paid. But this merely requires that HMRC gets involved in advising the employer what tax code to use for the employee (and this takes into account the amount of the personal allowance used by pension payment) - it does not require the employer to know all the details of the third-party pension itself.

[MartinBev58]

Hi Lynn

I think there may be a problem when you come to draw your pension.
I know somebody who was retired from his first employer when he was in his early 50's and got another job.
His second employer happened to be the Birmingham City Council. He paid into the council pension scheme.
He then had another retirement just before he was 60.
The council pension fund wanted to know the amount of his first pension to ensure he had not built up pensions worth more than £1,500,000 I think.
I know they valued his previous pension at about 20x the anual amount he would receive.
Needless to say the value of the 2 pensions came to nothing like £1,500,000 but the figure was substantial.

Martin

[buildersmate]

No, Martin. You are raising red-herrings. The probability that this is an issue is next to nothing.

[woofgang]

Can you do a photocopy that blanks out everything except the bit that says that you can't tell anybody?

[DTCwordfan]

Have your solicitor send them a letter that he has sighted the agreement and quote the clause to the Co about revealing information.

[Johnblor]

Hi Buildersmate

I do not know about Birmingham City Council but I know what Martin is saying is mainly right for another council.
It is not the council which needs the information however it is the pension fund at the time the pension is drawn.
I am sure Lynn's ex employers would have to allow her to reveal the required information to the pension fund to enable the drawing of the second pension or possibly the Inland revenue will Mediate.
A court order could in theory be issued to Lynn to reveal her pension details for various reasons.
Compulsion of law overides the terms of a contract.

John

[factor-fiction]

You could ask your previous employer whether they would give you permission to reveal this information. I don't understand though why they would have placed that secrecy provision on you unless it was a secret compromise agreement and they didn't want colleagues to know your terms at the time.
But I think there may be a simple explanation- it's either to ensure pensions are not exceeding the Life Time Allowance or to ensure tax codes are set correctly.

The only other issue is maybe they need to check you are not recycling previous tax free lump sum pension payments into your new pension/AVC scheme in order to benefit again from tax relief- although that's more an issue for HMRC

[Lynnspar]

Hi Factor30

I have contacted my previous employers today and they will not give permission for me to give my pension figures to my present employer.
With regard to drawing my pension from my present employers scheme they have said permission will be granted at the time of drawing to give the figures to the trustees against their undertaking to not reveal the figures to any third party including my present employers.
They have just stated they are not obliged to give any reason for their refusal.


Lynn

[Johnblor]

Hi Lynn

Are you sure you are dealing with somebody in authority and not Mr Jobsworth?.
The only other thing I can think of if you left on bad terms they may be just trying to make things difficult for you.
What could they do if they found out you gave the figures.
Is there a clause stating they can stop your pension?.

John

[woofgang]

my late husband was in receipt of benefits from his employer that he was required to keep confidential (but not from the taxman!) but they were related to bonuses, not redundancy, so its not unheard of. I still think that your best option is that prove to your current employer that you are unable to comply, either with aid from a solicitor or by showing them just that clause from your paperwork.
you might also try the ACAS helpline?

[buildersmate]

Johnblor
"It is not the council which needs the information however it is the pension fund at the time the pension is drawn."
But Lynn isn't due to draw the pension from the second (current) employer for another three years.
F30 and I are saying the same thing - it relates to getting the tax codes right (and possibly F30's additional point about Lifetime Allowances).

[themas]

1. Have you told your present employer why you cannot give them the information? If not, is there something in the agreement with your previous employer which prevents you doing so? If there isn't, then tell them.

2. They will then just have to accept it or, if they want the info. in connection with their fraud investigation, they will have to decide whether to refer the investigation to the police. If they do that your previous employer may have to decide whether they are willing to give the info. to the police.

[cathfromsaron]

they need only know your correct tax code! the rest is not their business!

[Lynnspar]

Hi themas

When my present employer requested the information about my pension I told them at that point to contact my previous employer as I was not allowed to give this information because of the terms of my redundancy agreement.

The fraud investigation is now over and I was never suspected as being part of the fraud.
My present employers are saying they want to know this information because if say an employee had a total pension plus salary amounting to say £40,000 and they are living in a £2,000,000 house an investigation may be required.
I have raised the point that people may inherit money or their partners may earn a lot more but I have had no response to that.
I understand if the police need this information thet can get a court order for my previous employers to provide it.

Lynn

[MartinBev58]

Hi Lynn

I am just wandering if your employer can make you give this information and it may be worth getting legal advice from a solicitor or the Citizans Advice Bureau or if you are a member your union.
I supose if your employer required this information before you took the job they may have a case as at that point you could have not taken the job.
I know your contract may say you could be required to do almost anything and could be amended but I am sure for example if your employer instructed you to go out and rob a bank for example they could could not take any action if you did not comply with their instructions as it would be unlawful.

Martin

[woofgang]

If it is definitely only regarding fraud then they have no right to require this information and should pass their allegations and evidence to the police if they think there is a case. I would definitely talk to acas about this. Having more money than you earn is not a crime or definite evidence of crime.