Crosswords1 min ago
Section 18 Dropped To 20 With Recommendation Of 18Mth Suspended Sentence Off Prosecution
I was originally charged with section 18 for biting a chunk of lower cheek/jaw flesh out off my partners brother at a family party. He was provoking me for a full weekend, being a complete ass all night then I lost it with him when he physically tried to drag his mother out the pub. I punched him 4/5 time we were broke up after he came charging back through the crowd basically looking to kill me I over powered him we went to the floor Pilsen on by many others at which point I was very drunk and trapped and reacted with all I could. Never did I intent to do the damage I did it was sheer instinct. I'm a very decent person and not a trouble causer like him. His own mother has supported me with my partner his sister since both standing by my side. He didn't deserve the injuries he received but yet provoked me and was asking for a fight all night. Im more remorseful than anyone could imagine and totally understand the gravity of my situation. He has since put in a statement saying he will not attend court and wants this no more. The police are extremely helpful and wanted the charges dropped because they see it as not in the public interest. His whole family are standing by me in that I'm a decent hard working family man and he was a total idiot. (Not that that makes 25 stitches in his cheek ok) I'm due for my 1st appearance in 5 days and today the prosecution after speaking to my lawyers and his suggesting (let's be reasonable) they dropped it from a section 18 to 20 with a max 3yrs. The dc later called me to confirm this. (She has been very understanding of this delicate situation and has twice put in recommendations to drop the charges after talking to the victims family and hearing the support they have for me) she also said that the prosecution has agreed to put in a recommendation I get 18mth suspended. I have not yet put in a plea or agreed to one and due in magistrates. The prosecution has asked the dc to ask me to bring my references off the victims mother, my partner and employer etc.
My questions if anyone could help are.
Do judges tend to follow prosecution recommendations (althou I know they are not obliged to)
And would there be any chance it could be all done and dusted at this 1st hearing if I would to provide my references, plead guilty. Could it be possible that the prosecution want it over with?
Many thanks and much appreciated for reading my post
My questions if anyone could help are.
Do judges tend to follow prosecution recommendations (althou I know they are not obliged to)
And would there be any chance it could be all done and dusted at this 1st hearing if I would to provide my references, plead guilty. Could it be possible that the prosecution want it over with?
Many thanks and much appreciated for reading my post
Answers
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You were charged with s18 which is always a jail term. It has been reduced to s20 which is a possible jail term. There is a recommendation for a sentence of 18 months suspended.
No one can tell you more, do what you have been told and it will be up to the Judge on the day. You MUST plead guilty at the earliest possible chance as that automatically gets you 1/3rd off the sentence.
As you say Judges are not obliged to follow prosecution recommendations but they do have to take them into account. Again all I can say is , plead guilty, make sure you show remorse and sorrow for your actions and hope the judge is feeling able to go with the suspended sentence , which will be reduced by 1/3rd as I said, as long as you plead guilty.
No one can tell you more, do what you have been told and it will be up to the Judge on the day. You MUST plead guilty at the earliest possible chance as that automatically gets you 1/3rd off the sentence.
As you say Judges are not obliged to follow prosecution recommendations but they do have to take them into account. Again all I can say is , plead guilty, make sure you show remorse and sorrow for your actions and hope the judge is feeling able to go with the suspended sentence , which will be reduced by 1/3rd as I said, as long as you plead guilty.
OK put it another way
any further advantage in NOT pleading guilty ?
you must be the judge ( pun intended)
and we think the answer is not
that is - this is good as it gets
SINCE you admit most of the elements of the offence
all there is left is bargaining - you should do yourself it as it affects you
any further advantage in NOT pleading guilty ?
you must be the judge ( pun intended)
and we think the answer is not
that is - this is good as it gets
SINCE you admit most of the elements of the offence
all there is left is bargaining - you should do yourself it as it affects you
Thank you both very much for your response.
I know I've pretty much stated the obvious but with 3 children, a great job and so much to loose I'm just trying to get other opinions. Thank you for yours.
Do you know if it is normal for the police and cps to want me to hand in references before the 1st hearing and weather the cps could possibly want to get it all done and dusted at this 1st hearing as to save time and money?
I know I've pretty much stated the obvious but with 3 children, a great job and so much to loose I'm just trying to get other opinions. Thank you for yours.
Do you know if it is normal for the police and cps to want me to hand in references before the 1st hearing and weather the cps could possibly want to get it all done and dusted at this 1st hearing as to save time and money?
PP no plea bargain to be done it has already been dropped from S18 to S20.
gmh1983 All I can say is go to the hearing and immediately tell them you want to plead guilty. Do all that they have asked. That will ensure that the case is over as fast as possible. Your lawyer is in a better position to advise you than we can possibly be. So listen to his/her advice.
gmh1983 All I can say is go to the hearing and immediately tell them you want to plead guilty. Do all that they have asked. That will ensure that the case is over as fast as possible. Your lawyer is in a better position to advise you than we can possibly be. So listen to his/her advice.
"The dc later called me to confirm this."
Who is the dc?
In England & Wales (and probably Scotland as well though I am not too well versed with Scottish procedures) the prosecution does not normally make recommendations for sentence. Especially in the form of a specific sentence such as you mention and especially when you have not even appeared at the Magistrates' Court.
"And would there be any chance it could be all done and dusted at this 1st hearing if I would to provide my references, plead guilty."
Not a chance. Eighteen months is the highest of the three sentencing "Starting Points" and it indicates that your offence is considered to be "Category 1" (of three) in terms of seriousness. This means, provided they agree with that categorisation, the Magistrates will almost certainly commit you to the Crown Court for sentencing (assuming you plead guilty, for trial if not) as it is beyond their sentencing powers. Once there the judge will almost certainly want reports from the probation service to assist with appropriate sentencing. Prepare yourself for at least three appearances (one at the Magistrates' Court and two at the Crown).
"Could it be possible that the prosecution want it over with?"
The prosecution has no need to "want it over with".They are paid to prosecute offences to a satisfactory conclusion and will make a representative available for however many hearings are necessary.
Who is the dc?
In England & Wales (and probably Scotland as well though I am not too well versed with Scottish procedures) the prosecution does not normally make recommendations for sentence. Especially in the form of a specific sentence such as you mention and especially when you have not even appeared at the Magistrates' Court.
"And would there be any chance it could be all done and dusted at this 1st hearing if I would to provide my references, plead guilty."
Not a chance. Eighteen months is the highest of the three sentencing "Starting Points" and it indicates that your offence is considered to be "Category 1" (of three) in terms of seriousness. This means, provided they agree with that categorisation, the Magistrates will almost certainly commit you to the Crown Court for sentencing (assuming you plead guilty, for trial if not) as it is beyond their sentencing powers. Once there the judge will almost certainly want reports from the probation service to assist with appropriate sentencing. Prepare yourself for at least three appearances (one at the Magistrates' Court and two at the Crown).
"Could it be possible that the prosecution want it over with?"
The prosecution has no need to "want it over with".They are paid to prosecute offences to a satisfactory conclusion and will make a representative available for however many hearings are necessary.
Thank you all very much for your responses and advice. The dc is is the detective in the case who has has given considerable help towards me getting this charge dropped. But the crown wanted to proceed in public interest. I think after her close involvement with the victims family (him being my partners brother) and everyones statement airing on my side. she understands the case well. It is to the dc the prosecution said they have to charge due to safe guarding but understand the effect that this wil have on the victims family also and will recommend an 18mth suspended and that I should provide my references for this 1st court date.
It was My solicitors who the prosecution 1st offered the section 20 to and he said it Carrys a maximum 3 yrs on the level it is lowered to.
It was My solicitors who the prosecution 1st offered the section 20 to and he said it Carrys a maximum 3 yrs on the level it is lowered to.
ON the sentencing council.org website it states that a cat 1 starting point is 3yrs with a maximum 6yrs custody and that a cat 2 start point is 18 mth with a max of 3yrs custodial. This lead should me to believe The charge is of cat 2 taking into account the max 3yrs my solicitor said I would get and the recommendation that the prosecution said they would make of 18mth suspended. Could this still not be heard in the magistrates and does this sound hopefull for me?
Thank you.
Do you have any idea why the prosecution has offered to put in a recommendation for the 18mth sususpended then? Given they will also know if it is a cat 1 then prison is almost certain.
Thank you for your response and sorry to sound like this is going around in circles I'm just trying to figure out why I have been given this information if it seems not atal possible
Do you have any idea why the prosecution has offered to put in a recommendation for the 18mth sususpended then? Given they will also know if it is a cat 1 then prison is almost certain.
Thank you for your response and sorry to sound like this is going around in circles I'm just trying to figure out why I have been given this information if it seems not atal possible
"This lead should me to believe The charge is of cat 2 taking into account the max 3yrs my solicitor said I would get and the recommendation that the prosecution said they would make of 18mth suspended. Could this still not be heard in the magistrates and does this sound hopefull for me?"
Yes my apologies. 18 months as the starting point for S20 is Cat 2.
What will happen is this: the Magistrates will be given details of the offence. They have to decide what category the offence falls into. If they agree that it is Cat 2 (which seems likely as your lawyer does) then the "sentencing range" they have to consider is one to three years. Their sentencing powers are restricted to six months. The possibility of it being suspended makes no difference to that. They therefore will send you to the Crown Court for sentencing.
I have no idea why you are being told that various people are "recommending" an eighteen month suspended sentence. Sentencing is entirely (in the Crown Court) a matter for the judge. I have never known a prosecution advocate "recommending" a specific sentence to a judge and if he did he would probably get a flea in his ear. Your probation report, when it is prepared, will go through the likely sentences and outline the effect they will have on you, but that's far short of making a recommendation.
Yes my apologies. 18 months as the starting point for S20 is Cat 2.
What will happen is this: the Magistrates will be given details of the offence. They have to decide what category the offence falls into. If they agree that it is Cat 2 (which seems likely as your lawyer does) then the "sentencing range" they have to consider is one to three years. Their sentencing powers are restricted to six months. The possibility of it being suspended makes no difference to that. They therefore will send you to the Crown Court for sentencing.
I have no idea why you are being told that various people are "recommending" an eighteen month suspended sentence. Sentencing is entirely (in the Crown Court) a matter for the judge. I have never known a prosecution advocate "recommending" a specific sentence to a judge and if he did he would probably get a flea in his ear. Your probation report, when it is prepared, will go through the likely sentences and outline the effect they will have on you, but that's far short of making a recommendation.
Ahh right thank you very much for your response. The effect on me would be massive. I have a very very good job and at a focal point of my 13yr career in engineering something I would loose if I went to jail. And a lot of learning engineers rely on me at work for training. I have 2 children who I am very very close to and provide for their mothers would struggle significantly if I went to jail with money and child care for them to work. If they could even continue to work. I am in a relationship with the victims sister who has a young child whom I have also been very close to over the past 3yrs and raised as my own they would both be devistated and find life hard without me around. The mother of the victim supports me wholeheartedly and insists she will put her point across of the decent human being I am and that her son was asking for trouble all weekend and night and that many people even those of the victims family that have said I behaved exemplary all weekend and did extremely well not to rise to his provocation atal apart from in the incident.
Will all this with references give me hope for a suspended?
Many many thanks for your time to reply and honesty. I will ruin so many lives if I go to jail not just my own it's such a sad situation and one I couldn't be more remorseful for.
Will all this with references give me hope for a suspended?
Many many thanks for your time to reply and honesty. I will ruin so many lives if I go to jail not just my own it's such a sad situation and one I couldn't be more remorseful for.
If I understand your post correctly you bit someone so hard he needed 25 stitches and then punched him 4 or 5 times?
Even with mitigation that looks like a prison term in my eyes.
Most people do not react in the way you did , they would just ignore the other person as far as possible and try to defuse the situation.
Even with mitigation that looks like a prison term in my eyes.
Most people do not react in the way you did , they would just ignore the other person as far as possible and try to defuse the situation.
He was aggressive all night to everyone. At the end of the night he approached his mum went off the handle at her and physically tried dragging her by the arms out the room. (Bruising to her arms was present the next day from this. It looked as if he was going to hit her (which other statements confirm) at this point i went to her defence (which she her self totally understands and supports me on) I then punched him 4/5 times. He went to the floor I sat on a chair. He then got up kicked off royal smashing and banging his way thru tables, chairs and people to inflict his revenge. I stood up as he came at me over powered him we went to the floor where people ended up piled on top of us I was completely pinned with people falling on my back and him under me. (A statement said it looked like a pile of body's) At the time I didn't know what or why I was trapped which is when I panicked and bit him. I never intended to bite so hard but I was scared and trapped and just reacted with what I could.
^ As I said you admit both punching and biting him, the fact that he was aggressive does not excuse your assault on him which went beyond reasonable self defence . You have good mitigating circumstances but I can't see it as getting you off a jail term.
You may possibly get it suspended but I would say that is not likely.
The argument will be that having done it once you could do it again if a similar situation arose.
You may possibly get it suspended but I would say that is not likely.
The argument will be that having done it once you could do it again if a similar situation arose.
That Is a very fair point. One the prosecution made to the police as reason for continuing the charges rarther than dropping them as the police wanted to do because they believe it's not in the public interest and that it was an isolated offence of which I am extremely sorry for. Would you say though it is also fair to say that with The police believing after their investigation that it's an isolated offence and that I'm not a risk to the public. That's the prosecution understand and believe that somewhat to say that they will offer a suspended which will put me back into the public. The victim does not want this to go any further because it would further hurt him and his family (my parter, his niece and mother) if I were to go to jail. The full support of the whole of the victims famil. This would destroy my 2 children's lives and possibly loose there parents the ability to afford to live or work. I understand the safeguarding aspect totally but taking everything I am so scared to loose away from me for a possible 10mth in prison (with good behaviour) to rehabilitate me and let me out with nothing but hurt? Doesn't seem fair.
And what I did certainly wasn't fair I just hope that the court/judge can bring a sentence that would be fair and justified. Thank you for your responses and opinions I hope I am able to come back to you one day.
Regards
And what I did certainly wasn't fair I just hope that the court/judge can bring a sentence that would be fair and justified. Thank you for your responses and opinions I hope I am able to come back to you one day.
Regards
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