Would You Transgress To Assist An Emergency Vehicle?

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1899561/drivers-fine-2500-moving-ambulance

....don't. This is not new to me but I'm amazed how many people think it's ok to go through a red light or stop in a yellow box to assist and emergency vehicle.

[ToraToraTora]

hymie: "There is nothing in rule 174 that contradicts what I have said." - yes but it also does not say there are exemptions for the things you say that's because there are not. That's why the "money box" is so contraversial because you do have a point above but they are not exemptions.

[Hymie]

Words from the ‘money box’ junction article you posted, reads:-

 

Speaking to the BBC, Andrew Ashe, who has campaigned for better traffic management at Bagley’s Lane, said it was the “perfect money box”.

He said: “As the cars are coming through you will see one traffic light which is green, encouraging traffic into the box, and the other one is red, and then they are stuck.”

 

Although there is a green traffic light encouraging traffic into the box, there is a red light preventing them from exiting the box – and therefore they have broken the rule for entering the box, not for stopping in the box.

[ToraToraTora]

"Although there is a green traffic light encouraging traffic into the box, there is a red light preventing them from exiting the box – " - no there isn't you can see here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7869701/Moneybox-junction-earns-grasping-council-1-9-MILLION-year-CCTV-catches-twice-number-drivers.html

The green light ahead is a repeater, there are no traffic lights on the far side of the box. What often happens at busy times both lanes are full. Car A is n the left lane car B is in the right. A sees a space directly ahead so enters the box but B is quicker and gets past A then moves left into the exit space that A was heading for. Now A has to stop in the box. Nicked, that's how they collect £12m a year from that box junction. A entered legally B entered illegally but B took A's space thus A had to stop. If you stop in a yellow box you are nicked, end of.

I agree it's unfair but you are wrong.

 

[ichkeria]

I'd unhesitatingly mount the pavement to let an emergency vehicle through provided:

there were no pedestrians around

it would, actually, help - ie the road ahead isn't still blocked anyway.

I wouldn't go through a red light

[retrocop]

    

///I'd unhesitatingly mount the pavement to let an emergency vehicle through provided://

Really not advisable ichekeria although with the best of intention. You have to learn how to do it properly at a specific angle otherwise you are more than likely break the steel plys within the tyre. Quite an expensive attempt to assist but you will be the one out of pocket.

 

 

[Hymie]

The DM article says no such thing (as you say) drivers switching lanes, resulting in vehicles being stuck in the box – clearly they are doing what I have said, entering the junction box when their exit is not clear.

 

The photos in the DM article suggest there is video surveillance of the junction – so the authorities can confirm that vehicles stopping in the junction box entered the box illegally (and not that they were stationary for some other reason).

[Hopkirk]

I believe blue light drivers are trained to turn off their sirens when stuck behind vehicles at a red light, and turn them on again when the lights go green.

[ToraToraTora]

"he DM article says no such thing (as you say) drivers switching lanes, resulting in vehicles being stuck in the box – clearly they are doing what I have said, entering the junction box when their exit is not clear." - I only showed you that to show you there were no traffic lights on the far side as you'd claimed above. The moneybox trap is well known. I agree the rule is based on entering but it is enforced by the act of getting photographed whilst stopped.

[retrocop]

          

//I believe blue light drivers are trained to turn off their sirens when stuck behind vehicles at a red light, and turn them on again when the lights go green.//

Not in my day we were'nt but it makes sense. No one worried in the past if drivers crossed the stop line to assist emergency vehicles unless there was an accident.In police terms it was called a

'Vicinity only POlACC' The Traffic Sergeant would have to attend and the police driver could find himself suspended from driving even though the emergency vehicle had not hit another vehicle.  The slogan of the day was ' No call justifies an accident'

[ToraToraTora]

Retro, can you comment on the yellow box situation Hymie and I have been discussing.

[ichkeria]

"Really not advisable ichekeria although with the best of intention. You have to learn how to do it properly at a specific angle otherwise you are more than likely break the steel plys within the tyre. Quite an expensive attempt to assist but you will be the one out of pocket."

Well it depends on the pavement: people park on the pavment outside the local pub, usually completely blocking it for pedestrians and much as I'd like to think they are damaging their wreteched tyres I suspect they aren't.

All these questions are hard to generalise as every situation is different. There might even be an occasion where going through a red light might help although I can't think of one

[Hymie]

Basically, my position is that there is only an offence of illegally entering a junction box (against the prescribed rules) – being stationary in the junction box (per se) is not prohibited (although it may be as a result of illegally entering the box).

[New Judge]

The law (the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, Schedule 9, Part 7, Paragraph 11) says this about box junctions:

"...a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."

So stopping because of the presence of a pedestrian would not contravene the law. However, the situation that Hymie describes (a vehicle pulling out from a side road after the driver had entered the box junction) is less clear cut. Because many box junctions are policed by cameras, a vehicle stopping in that situation would almost certainly be detected as "stopped" in the box junction and a penalty notice issued. It would then fall to the driver to appeal that notice by producing evidence showing why he had been forced to stop, having entered when his exit was clear.    

[choux]

Yes, I have done so and would do it again. IMO it is a humanitarian reaction and if you have ever awaited upon the arrival of an ambulance in answer to a 999 call you may understand my pov. A fine against a possible life-saving decision = no contest.

[Hymie]

NJ – and just how do you propose that I do that?

[ToraToraTora]

choux: "A fine against a possible life-saving decision = no contest." - could be points for a red light, what if that put you over 12? What if that meant you'd lose your job? etc etc not that clear cut.

[New Judge]

"NJ – and just how do you propose that I do that?"

Dashcam evidence would be handy. Failing that, your own testimony and/or that of any other witnesses.

[New Judge]

"A fine against a possible life-saving decision = no contest."

I'm afraid my humanitarian instincts do not stretch quite so far.

Successive governments have seen fit to develop a system of law enforcement by remote devices, so eliminating the luxury of a police officer's discretion. There is a downside to that which is that many, if not most drivers will not break the law to accommodate an emergency vehicle because they will find it difficult, if not impossible to get anybody to use sensible discretion to see them vindicated. 

As Tora says, a red light offence attracts three points, that could see a driver liable to a "totting up" ban and the consequences of that for some people can be catastrophic.

[choux]

TTT, I have never had a point on my driving licence in nearly 70 years' experience and I am long since retired. However, I have made 3 x 999 calls so it is clear cut from my pov and there lies the crux of your question.

[Hymie]

Based on NJ’s post @ 13:27, I’m claiming victory over TTT in relation to junction box infringement criteria.

 

Clearly an offence is committed at the moment of entering the junction box (when not permitted to do so) – although I would admit that should you legally enter a junction box (with a clear exit), should you be forced to stop within the junction box for some unforeseen reason, you could find it difficult to prove that you legally entered the junction box.

 

Personally I would expect any evidence supplied to the court showing that an infringement occurred would prove this (video evidence), not stills photos which prove nothing.