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4x4s often seem to be criticised by envioronmentalists for their gas-guzzling properties . . .
however, are 4x4s alone in this regard or are large engined muscle cars not just as guilty re fuel comsumption? If this is true, why do 4x4s always seem to be singled out and the large engined cars seem to get away with no mention?
I am not trying to make a point, I am genuinely interested in why they get all the flack.
I am not trying to make a point, I am genuinely interested in why they get all the flack.
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Here goes - I think any car that has an engine size over let's say 2.5l should pay higher taxes I can't really see the need for them
4x4's,BMW, Audi, & Mercedes drivers and such like are prerceived that they have the God given right to speed, cut you up and generally be a nuisance.
As for the ordinary motorist I have no qualms with - but these ***** who believe that buying a " fancy " car gives them some sort of status and the above mentioned rights I have not got a lot of time for.
I personally hate 4x4's on the road - you can't see through the blighters to see the high level brake lights in the car ahead.
4x4's,BMW, Audi, & Mercedes drivers and such like are prerceived that they have the God given right to speed, cut you up and generally be a nuisance.
As for the ordinary motorist I have no qualms with - but these ***** who believe that buying a " fancy " car gives them some sort of status and the above mentioned rights I have not got a lot of time for.
I personally hate 4x4's on the road - you can't see through the blighters to see the high level brake lights in the car ahead.
There seem to be a number of different complaints from a number of different groups.
The environmental lobby generally dislike inefficient cars - ferraris as much as shogans.
There are those who give out about the "urban 4x4" which allegedly takes up so much space on the road - although a honda CRX is nearly 1m shorter than a BMW 3 series.
And there are those who take the safety aspect and complain that although those who drive in them are statistically safer those hit by them are more likely to suffer worse injury.
Leaving aside the implication that people should downgrade their own safety for others, those hit by a 4x4 will be no more badly injured than if they were hit by a van and as we don't have a problem with those the agument stumbles a bit.
I think in the end the objection is more an emotional one and that woodchopper is very honest in saying it's because he can't see past them and doesn't like being stuck behind them and that a lot of the objections are rationalisations of that basic dislike.
It is interesting that certain news media seem to feed this. When Richmond introduced packing fees based on car taxation bands (and hence engine sizes) this was widely reported as "clamping down on 4x4s" which was deliberately misleading.
The point woodchopper makes on all engine sizes is a good one although personally I'd have thought the best way would be simply to refuse to clear for sale any new car models that cannot manage say 25 mpg on an urban run
The environmental lobby generally dislike inefficient cars - ferraris as much as shogans.
There are those who give out about the "urban 4x4" which allegedly takes up so much space on the road - although a honda CRX is nearly 1m shorter than a BMW 3 series.
And there are those who take the safety aspect and complain that although those who drive in them are statistically safer those hit by them are more likely to suffer worse injury.
Leaving aside the implication that people should downgrade their own safety for others, those hit by a 4x4 will be no more badly injured than if they were hit by a van and as we don't have a problem with those the agument stumbles a bit.
I think in the end the objection is more an emotional one and that woodchopper is very honest in saying it's because he can't see past them and doesn't like being stuck behind them and that a lot of the objections are rationalisations of that basic dislike.
It is interesting that certain news media seem to feed this. When Richmond introduced packing fees based on car taxation bands (and hence engine sizes) this was widely reported as "clamping down on 4x4s" which was deliberately misleading.
The point woodchopper makes on all engine sizes is a good one although personally I'd have thought the best way would be simply to refuse to clear for sale any new car models that cannot manage say 25 mpg on an urban run
Ok...
We own a few cars. 2 are big 4x4's: Supercharged Range Rover and Land Rover Freelander diesel.
Also have a couple of regular cars and a sports car.
To the environmentalists... don't gripe... I can only drive 1 of them at a time, so it doesn't matter how many I have.
Secondly, do you really think driving a 40 year old Morris Minor or Citroen 2CV is more environmentally friendly than ANY brand new car, regardless of the engine size?
Thirdly, did you know the Mercedes S Class is one of the most eco friendly cars around? Made from recycled materials and chucks hardly any harmful emition at all.
Fourthly, so what if mothers use their Chelsea Tractors to take the little darlings to school?
Which would you rather be in, if someone decided to crashed head on in to you? A mini or a 4x4?
Fifthly (is that a word?), if someone is going to spend �50k plus on any car, 4x4 or not, do you really think sticking another �25 on yearly tax is going to bat our eyelids?
Like anything, it is those who abuse things that give everyone a bad name... like northern people (nothing specific, just northern people in general).
We own a few cars. 2 are big 4x4's: Supercharged Range Rover and Land Rover Freelander diesel.
Also have a couple of regular cars and a sports car.
To the environmentalists... don't gripe... I can only drive 1 of them at a time, so it doesn't matter how many I have.
Secondly, do you really think driving a 40 year old Morris Minor or Citroen 2CV is more environmentally friendly than ANY brand new car, regardless of the engine size?
Thirdly, did you know the Mercedes S Class is one of the most eco friendly cars around? Made from recycled materials and chucks hardly any harmful emition at all.
Fourthly, so what if mothers use their Chelsea Tractors to take the little darlings to school?
Which would you rather be in, if someone decided to crashed head on in to you? A mini or a 4x4?
Fifthly (is that a word?), if someone is going to spend �50k plus on any car, 4x4 or not, do you really think sticking another �25 on yearly tax is going to bat our eyelids?
Like anything, it is those who abuse things that give everyone a bad name... like northern people (nothing specific, just northern people in general).
I have a diesel Audi Quattro. It's economical & a lot cleaner than many other cars on the road, so I don't feel I should be put into the bracket of 'environment vandal'.
I agree with those that say the tax on petrol is enough. If you drive a large-engined car, you will generally pay more tax anyway. Want to clean up the pollution caused by motoring? Tax old cars!
I agree with those that say the tax on petrol is enough. If you drive a large-engined car, you will generally pay more tax anyway. Want to clean up the pollution caused by motoring? Tax old cars!
I think 4x4s are singled out because they're an easy target with the vast majority falling into the Chelsea Tractor class hauling kids to school. The nearest a Porsche Cayenne will get to needing its four-wheel drive will be when turning into the gravel drive.
What annoys me is the minority who buy Land Rovers to use on the farm also get hammered. There'll be no exemption if you actually use a Kia Sorrento to tow a caravan onto muddy camping fields. Got a horsebox? Tough, you'll have to cough up too. And that stinks, it's not as if you can hitch it up to a Mondeo.
Easy money, that's all the government cares about.
What annoys me is the minority who buy Land Rovers to use on the farm also get hammered. There'll be no exemption if you actually use a Kia Sorrento to tow a caravan onto muddy camping fields. Got a horsebox? Tough, you'll have to cough up too. And that stinks, it's not as if you can hitch it up to a Mondeo.
Easy money, that's all the government cares about.
Well said Mellie.
We have a horse box (I have nothing against caravans... it's caravan owners I dislike!) and the number of people who have a go at me about using an off road vehicle on the public highway... so I have to point out the towbar and the glorious mud sprayed up the sides!
BMW X5's especially, as most wannabe off roaders, would get stuck on a croquet lawn!
It is the same for those who have bigger cars because they have big families... or they use their bigger car for a car pool to work.
So if you have a 2.5lt Renault Espace, you will be in the same group as me, who has a range rover, and we will both be taxed �25 PER DAY to drive in to London.
Fair? No, of course it isn't. Buses pollute far more than all the modern day cars do put together!
We have a horse box (I have nothing against caravans... it's caravan owners I dislike!) and the number of people who have a go at me about using an off road vehicle on the public highway... so I have to point out the towbar and the glorious mud sprayed up the sides!
BMW X5's especially, as most wannabe off roaders, would get stuck on a croquet lawn!
It is the same for those who have bigger cars because they have big families... or they use their bigger car for a car pool to work.
So if you have a 2.5lt Renault Espace, you will be in the same group as me, who has a range rover, and we will both be taxed �25 PER DAY to drive in to London.
Fair? No, of course it isn't. Buses pollute far more than all the modern day cars do put together!
If a large number people started driving vans for reasons other than necessity then people would have a problem with them. On 2nd thoughts, people do have problem with van drivers. Now having another group of drivers with a sense of invincibility is hardly desirable.
Re Caledon:
On your 4th point "So what if..." You may not care what happens to the people in the other car, but surely you can understand why some people do?
Re Caledon:
On your 4th point "So what if..." You may not care what happens to the people in the other car, but surely you can understand why some people do?
-- answer removed --
-- answer removed --
Sorry Caladon did you just say the Mercedes S class was one of the most environmentally friendly cars in the world?
14.6mpg urban.
An Apollo rocket made out of recycled plastic isn't environmentally friendly!
Extra tax on the cars won't disuade the Jeremy Clarksons of this world and upping the petrol prices hits poorer people in the countryside disproportionately more. This is why we just have to stop approving stupidly inefficient cars from sale.
14.6mpg urban.
An Apollo rocket made out of recycled plastic isn't environmentally friendly!
Extra tax on the cars won't disuade the Jeremy Clarksons of this world and upping the petrol prices hits poorer people in the countryside disproportionately more. This is why we just have to stop approving stupidly inefficient cars from sale.
Well where do you start on this topic ?
I drive a 4x4 - A BMW X5 3.0d. I have no dillusions that it will beat a Land Rover Discovery up Snowdonia whatsoever or in fact will I ever attempt to take it off road. The car has a 4x4 driving system much for the same reason as an A4/A6 Quattro - safety. In the snow, ice and wet it is certainly the car I prefer myself and my family to be in. I bought it primarily for safety reasons and I beleieve it's the best car in it's class for my needs with all the comfort and specification I want. Also if we do encounter a div on the way - he will harm only himself and not my two children.
My sister had an accident in a Landcruiser - primarily bought for towing a large touring caravan, when it and the caravan rolled twice down the motorway (through no fault of their own) her two sons, my nephews, survived. The police said they didnt expect them to when they turned up at the crash site. That alone to me is worth the extra tax.
I don't believe I own any part of the road - just that I would like to use part of it occaisionally.
"God given right to speed, cut you up and generally be a nuisance. " I don't think I'm a general nuisance I certainly don't go down to ASDA and do donuts all night and throw my McDonalds wrappers out of the window when I've done or fix a large canon of an exhaust - loud enough to wake the neighbouring continent - I don't speed any more than the average motorist. Woodchopper see an anger management counsellor - you obviously have issues and drop back a bit further if you want to see two cars ahead !
2pt
I drive a 4x4 - A BMW X5 3.0d. I have no dillusions that it will beat a Land Rover Discovery up Snowdonia whatsoever or in fact will I ever attempt to take it off road. The car has a 4x4 driving system much for the same reason as an A4/A6 Quattro - safety. In the snow, ice and wet it is certainly the car I prefer myself and my family to be in. I bought it primarily for safety reasons and I beleieve it's the best car in it's class for my needs with all the comfort and specification I want. Also if we do encounter a div on the way - he will harm only himself and not my two children.
My sister had an accident in a Landcruiser - primarily bought for towing a large touring caravan, when it and the caravan rolled twice down the motorway (through no fault of their own) her two sons, my nephews, survived. The police said they didnt expect them to when they turned up at the crash site. That alone to me is worth the extra tax.
I don't believe I own any part of the road - just that I would like to use part of it occaisionally.
"God given right to speed, cut you up and generally be a nuisance. " I don't think I'm a general nuisance I certainly don't go down to ASDA and do donuts all night and throw my McDonalds wrappers out of the window when I've done or fix a large canon of an exhaust - loud enough to wake the neighbouring continent - I don't speed any more than the average motorist. Woodchopper see an anger management counsellor - you obviously have issues and drop back a bit further if you want to see two cars ahead !
2pt
2nd prt
As for sport car drivers - do they buy their cars to race on a race track such as four by four owners are deemed to go off road or does a sports car owner think they can race everywhere ? Some do- not all. If you have an estate car do you need to own two Labradors ? We can all stereotype people with our own perceived ideas of what those people are like but it's certainly unsafe to do so and narrow minded to think that because you drive a 4x4 you want to use it off road.
We live in a democracy and I chose to drive the car I want to drive - not what someone thinks I should drive.
That's not what I said. I said I have the right to chose which car I drive like I have the right to walk down the street, go to the pictures and live my life without being dictated to. I don't mind paying for what little polluting I actually do.
I get approx 25-30 MPG out of my car and can think of may cars that do not - I am in now way being wasteful, but I think there are bigger fish to fry here instead of the already taxed to death motorist. My reply was not aimed at the tax issue but aimed at other replies that do not look at the whole picture and stereotype and pigeon hole drivers. Make me pay - but don't criticise me for driving the car that I deem to be perfectly alright and at the bottom end of the polluting scale as opposed to 10 MPG lorries and buses.
Or shall we all buy trabants - it would be a terrible world if we were all the same !
I get approx 25-30 MPG out of my car and can think of may cars that do not - I am in now way being wasteful, but I think there are bigger fish to fry here instead of the already taxed to death motorist. My reply was not aimed at the tax issue but aimed at other replies that do not look at the whole picture and stereotype and pigeon hole drivers. Make me pay - but don't criticise me for driving the car that I deem to be perfectly alright and at the bottom end of the polluting scale as opposed to 10 MPG lorries and buses.
Or shall we all buy trabants - it would be a terrible world if we were all the same !
I'm not suggesting everybody has to buy a Trabant for goodness sake there's a huge difference between that and an S class.
Your X5s a diesel and not spectacular but not too bad at 23.5MPG urban.
I'm not even suggesting that people be made to stop driving them. Just that no new cars would be approved if they can't meet certain levels.
We need Lorries and vans, nobody needs a Hummer not unless they're going to Iraq!
Your X5s a diesel and not spectacular but not too bad at 23.5MPG urban.
I'm not even suggesting that people be made to stop driving them. Just that no new cars would be approved if they can't meet certain levels.
We need Lorries and vans, nobody needs a Hummer not unless they're going to Iraq!
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