Electric cars

[Scylax]

We hear that electrically driven cars are the way forward, and being 'green' are much to be recommended. However, I also read that such cars may not use their heaters, as this would reduce their effective range by 48%. British weather being what it is, this seems like a recipe for pneumonia.... unless one only drives around the block on a regular basis.

Or am I wrong ?

[Count-A-Strong]

Surely if this is true the same applies to Air Con?

[Scylax]

You bet it does, C-A-S. So we lose out, be it summer or winter.

[R1Geezer]

electric cars are not green if the electricty is generated by fossil fuels. In fact it's better to run them directly on gas/oil etc or 80% of the energy is wasted.

[Toureman]

Your dead right R1 !

Storing electricity in batteries which is produced by fossil fuels harms the environment massively.

As a famous actor said " not many people know this!"

[New Judge]

Absolutely, Geezer and Toureman.

Of course electric cars appear to be “green”. Nice and quiet, no dirty exhaust fumes but, as you point out, unless the energy to charge them up is produced by a green method (and, bar nuclear, this country does not have the capacity to do so in any quantity and with reliability), then they are simply an expensive waste. Yet another example of fooling people into believing that if they opt for expensive and inappropriate alternatives they are doing their bit for the planet.

Recently the Mayor London (accompanied by the usual fanfare) unveiled the first of a small fleet of hydrogen powered buses. “These buses are a marvel of hydrogen technology, emitting only water rather than belching out harmful pollutants.” trumpeted the Mayor. Quite true as far as it goes but lacking in one important respect: as far as I am aware neither the UK nor anywhere else has any reliable and efficient way of producing hydrogen reliably and in any quantity without either burning fossil fuels or relying on intermittent energy sources. So a hydrogen powered vehicle is no more “green” than an electric one. All that both do is move the pollution elsewhere. Fine for Londoners, not so fine if you live near a power station.

[Hopkirk]

So how do you keep warm in an electric car?

[New Judge]

You soon warm up when you have to get out and push when the battery runs flat!

[Richard1966]

The heaters in an electric are are also electric heaters, so all thy do is drain the batteries more quickly, meaning that you lose lots of range. Of course these things are meant for city use so as most who have them will only be doing a few miles it probably doesn't matter that they only do 50-60 miles between a charge, but everyone above is correct they are not green in any way.

[Toureman]

So,

You have just set off driving at night in your expensive shiny new electric car, it,s dark, headlights on, it,s raining, wipers on, heated rear screen on to keep it clear, you have to use A/C to keep the condensation off the windscreen but at the same time turn on the heater to keep warm, sat nav connected,
kids in the back watching their dvd players connected up.

You reach the first junction where you have to brake, your brake lights bulbs light up and your battery goes dead !

[jake-the-peg]

There are more problems with hydrogen than just its production. It is very bulky unless liquified and liquifying it uses over half the energy contained in it.

But back to electric.

Yes it's true that electric cars pollute if generation comes from fossil fuels.

But not all electricity comes from fossil fuels

All petrol does come from fossil fuels.

The use of electric vehicles and run down of fossil fuel electric generation has to proceed hand in hand.

Also electric vehicles are most suited to urban commuting and so reduces local pollution which does most damage to people's health and the immediate environment.

You're never going to replace all vehicles with electric but that's no reason not to start with those that cam.

Never thought about the heating issue - interesting

[R1Geezer]

yes jake but surely electric vehicles only make any sense if the electricty is generated by Nuclear or renewable. In the UK most of our power is from fossil fuels. Oddly the Eco warrior types are innexplicably against Nuclear power too!

[jake-the-peg]

As I say they can make sense by shifting the pollution out of towns and cities.

the "eco types" have mixed feelings to nuclear these days - some see it (I think rightly) as the only practical route in the short time to really eat into carbon emissions.

Others are still opposed

[Andyvon]

I think it's slowly dawning on people (other than the diehard dreamers) that electric vehicles are definitely NOT the way forward. The concept can struggle along while there are only a few around but the problems will start to become obvious if more and more take to the roads.

One of the main problems will be the massive demand on the national grid as people put their cars on charge in the evenings, overnight and at weekends. Off-peak electricity is cheap and plentiful at the moment, but it will become progressively more expensive and costly to supply if millions of electric vehicles are being charged in the evenings and middle of the night in what will become the peak demand time. That power has to be generated from somewhere - fossil fuels! The demand for oil and gas will then become stronger than ever! Being realistic we are not going to supply the world's power demand from tides and wind turbines. All that will happen is that those nations that can afford to buy oil and gas will pay more and the world's poverty gap will continue to widen.

China is projected to possess one in four of the world's cars by 2020 - 100 million cars! The whole thing has just got ridiculous. There's only one real answer to the energy crisis - stop building new cars! Keep older cars going and reduce the numbers of people driving. We will be forced to accept that soon, like it or not.

[Hopkirk]

Sounds good Andyvon, as long as it's not my car you get rid of.

[Andyvon]

Same with me Hopkirk! I don't want to give up mine either and that's the problem. However, with millions more drivers and millions more cars on the road every year we have reached the point where the system is seizing up. Fossils fuels are running out, we can't all have a windmill on our roofs and there are no other feasilble solutions. The world will have to accept, one way or the other, that there must be less drivers and less cars - not more and more. We are rapidly approaching that point with our heads planted firmly in the ground!

When I was a kid in the 60s and 70s every family had just one car - THE family car. It was usually used by the father of the house to go to work every day and everyone else got around on foot, on public transport, by bike etc. In the last few years people have been taught that it's their right for everyone to have a car so families now have three and four cars per household! It's the same in Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa etc. Everyone now wants cars. The world's motoring infrastructure has reached overload.

Stopping the advertising and sale of new cars is one solution. Limiting the number of new drivers allowed per year to equal those who stop driving is another. Only allowing one vehicle per household is another. Those aren't just Draconian fancies of mine. They are real solutions. The world will be forced to get it's head out the sand and adopt similar solutions soon as they will be no more capacity on the roads and no more fuel.

[Hopkirk]

(fingers in my ears) 'la la la la'

I can't hear you.

[Andyvon]

You can take your fingers out of your ears Hopkirk! Don't think I'm one of these eco-freaks. I'm like everyone else. Just so long as I've got my car and can continue to use it I really don't care about global warming or lack of oil. I don't have any children or grandchildren to worry about once I'm gone. I care about global warming and lack of fuel as much as I do about the planet being burning to a crisp by the expanding sun in 5 billion years time!

The reason I made the points above was to answer the thread by saying that I think electric vehicles are a blind alley and the world is rapidly reaching the point of meltdown. Like you and everyone else with a car I don't much care whether it does.

[AlBags]

It's not that long ago .. that heaters, windscreen washers, seatbelts, and radios were optional extras!
We're just not tough cookies like we used to be!