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"For Sale" Signs
12 Answers
Here's one which not a lot of you will be aware of: You could be prosecuted for displaying a "For Sale" sign in your car window.
I know someone who was threatened with just that by his local council, the offence apparently being "Unlawful Street Trading".
Not a lotta people know that!
I know someone who was threatened with just that by his local council, the offence apparently being "Unlawful Street Trading".
Not a lotta people know that!
Answers
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There have been lots of people fined for this - especially in council car parks where trading is expressly forbidden:
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/1813794.fined_ for_having_a_for_sale_sign_in_car/
Or while it is parked on the highway:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-103041 0/Grandfather-For-Sale-sign-car-window-given-1 00-fine-running-street-business.html
http://www.bromley.gov.uk/news/newsarchive2009 /jan2009/prosecuted_for_illegal_car_for_sale_s igns.htm
I thought most people knew this.
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/1813794.fined_ for_having_a_for_sale_sign_in_car/
Or while it is parked on the highway:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-103041 0/Grandfather-For-Sale-sign-car-window-given-1 00-fine-running-street-business.html
http://www.bromley.gov.uk/news/newsarchive2009 /jan2009/prosecuted_for_illegal_car_for_sale_s igns.htm
I thought most people knew this.
"Ethel", for your information, Councils are, in my view, abusing legislation brought in (in the early 90s??) relating to, for example, hot dog/burger/fish+chip vans, market traders, stall holders etc etc operating without street licences.
It is very convenient for them to apply same to private citizens merely trying to sell a car by having a "For Sale" sign in the window. This, strictly is not "street trading" because any ultimate transaction would not be carried out in the street as the above examples I've mentioned.
Besides, it would appear that your examples include one in a car park and another in what seems to be residents' parking bays, technically not the same as a public highway.
The fact is that people are probably not challenging these claims by councils that an offence has actually been committed.
There again, I don't suppose most of us could afford that lawyer who gets most "celebrities" off of driving offences (Nick Freeman?).
One of the people featured in one of your examples rightly asks why, for example, don't driving school vehicles be subject to the same punishment? I'm not saying that they should, however they are advertising their services etc.
As do loads of public houses which have A Frames advertising food+drinks littering pavements up and down the country. When did you ever hear of a publican being prosecuted for "illegal street trading"? There are many other examples.
I just think that local authorities are misusing legislation, that's all.
It is very convenient for them to apply same to private citizens merely trying to sell a car by having a "For Sale" sign in the window. This, strictly is not "street trading" because any ultimate transaction would not be carried out in the street as the above examples I've mentioned.
Besides, it would appear that your examples include one in a car park and another in what seems to be residents' parking bays, technically not the same as a public highway.
The fact is that people are probably not challenging these claims by councils that an offence has actually been committed.
There again, I don't suppose most of us could afford that lawyer who gets most "celebrities" off of driving offences (Nick Freeman?).
One of the people featured in one of your examples rightly asks why, for example, don't driving school vehicles be subject to the same punishment? I'm not saying that they should, however they are advertising their services etc.
As do loads of public houses which have A Frames advertising food+drinks littering pavements up and down the country. When did you ever hear of a publican being prosecuted for "illegal street trading"? There are many other examples.
I just think that local authorities are misusing legislation, that's all.
I did say one of those links related to car parks.
I'm in favour of the councils doing this, to be honest. There is a small free council car park near me where a local was parking at least 5 cars with 'for sale' notices on, sometimes as many as 10. Three were lots of complaints about it but he did get prosecuted.
Another problem is where the legitimate person is selling his car but parks it in the road outside his house rather than in his garage. My neighbour used to do this until he was stopped - he now has a prominent sign on his drive advertising his car which doesn't obstruct anybody.
And of course the law must be applied fairly - you can't prosecute one person because he has several cars with adverts parked on the road but ignore several other cars doing the same thing just because they are registered to several different people.
I'm in favour of the councils doing this, to be honest. There is a small free council car park near me where a local was parking at least 5 cars with 'for sale' notices on, sometimes as many as 10. Three were lots of complaints about it but he did get prosecuted.
Another problem is where the legitimate person is selling his car but parks it in the road outside his house rather than in his garage. My neighbour used to do this until he was stopped - he now has a prominent sign on his drive advertising his car which doesn't obstruct anybody.
And of course the law must be applied fairly - you can't prosecute one person because he has several cars with adverts parked on the road but ignore several other cars doing the same thing just because they are registered to several different people.
This, strictly is not "street trading" because any ultimate transaction would not be carried out in the street...
For those local authorities having adopted Schedule 4 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 the definition of street trading - the selling, exposing or offering for sale any article in a prohibited street, or without licence, or without consent (subject to legal exemptions) - means that strictly it is street trading, no matter where the "ultimate transaction" occurs.
If you believe that pubs etc. are advertising on the street without having valid licence to do so, I suggest you point it out to your local authority.
For those local authorities having adopted Schedule 4 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 the definition of street trading - the selling, exposing or offering for sale any article in a prohibited street, or without licence, or without consent (subject to legal exemptions) - means that strictly it is street trading, no matter where the "ultimate transaction" occurs.
If you believe that pubs etc. are advertising on the street without having valid licence to do so, I suggest you point it out to your local authority.
-- answer removed --
I suggest, Kempie, that you actually read the legislation to which you refer and you will see, as I've already stated, that it refers to the abovementioned categories.
Let me put it simply: If you go to a market and see things for sale, you buy+pay for it on the spot. Similarly, if an ice cream van arrives in your street and you want a lollipop, you purchase it there and then. Etc, etc.
However, if you have the likes of a "For Sale" sign in your car, you are merely inviting people to make contact, NOT to actually purchase the vehicle in situ. It's all too easy for local authorities to hide behind the sentence you quoted and misuse legislation intended and introduced for traders as opposed to "Joe Public".
Similar abuse and misuse of legislation goes on all the time, i.e. Police using anti-terror laws as an excuse for stop/searching "suspects" - happens all the time.
Secondly, re signs outside pubs etc, if people did what you suggest, then courts up and down the land would have endless prosecutions piling up for similar offences and the criminal justice system simply couldn't cope.
The Law is far from infallible.
Let me put it simply: If you go to a market and see things for sale, you buy+pay for it on the spot. Similarly, if an ice cream van arrives in your street and you want a lollipop, you purchase it there and then. Etc, etc.
However, if you have the likes of a "For Sale" sign in your car, you are merely inviting people to make contact, NOT to actually purchase the vehicle in situ. It's all too easy for local authorities to hide behind the sentence you quoted and misuse legislation intended and introduced for traders as opposed to "Joe Public".
Similar abuse and misuse of legislation goes on all the time, i.e. Police using anti-terror laws as an excuse for stop/searching "suspects" - happens all the time.
Secondly, re signs outside pubs etc, if people did what you suggest, then courts up and down the land would have endless prosecutions piling up for similar offences and the criminal justice system simply couldn't cope.
The Law is far from infallible.
Kempie,
1. I have read the legislation - all of it - not sure that you have?
2. As I've tried to explain to you, the "offering for sale" has to be taken in the context of the legislation which was aimed at the "abovementioned categories" I'd already highlighted, i.e. market traders/stall holders/street vendors e.g. ice cream or fish+chip vans etc etc. In other words, goods/items available to be bought there and then / on the spot.
3) The legislation is being abused by councils because of that one sentence which, Kempie, for your benefit I'll quote: "street trading means - the selling or exposing for sale of any article(including a living thing) in a street ". This is the loophole which councils are using to prosecute people, and the only reason they've succeeded so far is that no one has obviously challenged them! Ilook forward to the day and hour that someone does - good luck to them.
1. I have read the legislation - all of it - not sure that you have?
2. As I've tried to explain to you, the "offering for sale" has to be taken in the context of the legislation which was aimed at the "abovementioned categories" I'd already highlighted, i.e. market traders/stall holders/street vendors e.g. ice cream or fish+chip vans etc etc. In other words, goods/items available to be bought there and then / on the spot.
3) The legislation is being abused by councils because of that one sentence which, Kempie, for your benefit I'll quote: "street trading means - the selling or exposing for sale of any article(including a living thing) in a street ". This is the loophole which councils are using to prosecute people, and the only reason they've succeeded so far is that no one has obviously challenged them! Ilook forward to the day and hour that someone does - good luck to them.
Not only have I read it, I also understand it (and that is without the need for you to to "put it simply" for me).
However, I do not understand where you get your "context" from. The legislation was framed in a way to cover every type of trader, and then allows for exemptions. This is the exact reverse method to how you describe it i.e.aimed at specific categories not allowed to trade.
There is no "on the spot" sale provision anywhere within the document. Trade may involve many stages - advertising, invitation to treat, offer, acceptance, payment, delivery etc. The legislation deals with "Street Trading" not "Street Selling". A sale does not have to be completed for the actions up to that point to suddenly become trading.
You make many assumptions in your arguments. Why do you believe that pubs across the country en masse would not have (where applicable) the licence or consent to advertise on the street? Pubs require a number of licences to operate. Do you really think they would overlook this possible licensing issue in the hopes of not incurring a fine?
BTW �street trading� means the selling or exposing or offering for sale of any article (including a living thing) in a street is a definition not a loophole. It defines the law (i.e. applies to everybody), so how are authorities abusing it by following it to the letter?
You look forward to the day when someone challenges a prosecution. All prosecutions to date have had to go to court (there is no FPN option) so please explain why in all previous cases of unlawful street trading nobody has (as you assume) obviously challenged the "abuse" of this law? Why have magistrates routinely failed to dismiss these cases? Perhaps because they understand the law.
However, I do not understand where you get your "context" from. The legislation was framed in a way to cover every type of trader, and then allows for exemptions. This is the exact reverse method to how you describe it i.e.aimed at specific categories not allowed to trade.
There is no "on the spot" sale provision anywhere within the document. Trade may involve many stages - advertising, invitation to treat, offer, acceptance, payment, delivery etc. The legislation deals with "Street Trading" not "Street Selling". A sale does not have to be completed for the actions up to that point to suddenly become trading.
You make many assumptions in your arguments. Why do you believe that pubs across the country en masse would not have (where applicable) the licence or consent to advertise on the street? Pubs require a number of licences to operate. Do you really think they would overlook this possible licensing issue in the hopes of not incurring a fine?
BTW �street trading� means the selling or exposing or offering for sale of any article (including a living thing) in a street is a definition not a loophole. It defines the law (i.e. applies to everybody), so how are authorities abusing it by following it to the letter?
You look forward to the day when someone challenges a prosecution. All prosecutions to date have had to go to court (there is no FPN option) so please explain why in all previous cases of unlawful street trading nobody has (as you assume) obviously challenged the "abuse" of this law? Why have magistrates routinely failed to dismiss these cases? Perhaps because they understand the law.
interesting discussion on this topic here
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic= 29925&mode=linear
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic= 29925&mode=linear
i reckon that too BM!
This post interested me, although i have to admit, I have no desire to actually read the link, nor do i care about whether people get prosecuted for advertising their cars for sale on the road, as it just seem chavvy! pay 25 quid to get it in auto trader you cheapskates. Or a couple of quid to put it in the paper. however, i do appreciate a good point well made. Well done kempie!
By the way, in the second post, the OP mentions celebrity lawyers who get them off of everything - are you really suggesting that david beckham wants to sell his car he takes it to a car park and sticks a "for sale" sign n the window:)
This post interested me, although i have to admit, I have no desire to actually read the link, nor do i care about whether people get prosecuted for advertising their cars for sale on the road, as it just seem chavvy! pay 25 quid to get it in auto trader you cheapskates. Or a couple of quid to put it in the paper. however, i do appreciate a good point well made. Well done kempie!
By the way, in the second post, the OP mentions celebrity lawyers who get them off of everything - are you really suggesting that david beckham wants to sell his car he takes it to a car park and sticks a "for sale" sign n the window:)
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