Therefore, Jew

[Rev. Green]

"The quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath... Therefore, Jew, though justice be thy plea, consider this: that in the course of justice none of us should see salvation. We do pray for mercy, and that same prayer doth teach us all to render the deeds of mercy."

Have Jews learnt nothing since 1598?

[Atheist]

RevGreen.

Why do you expect 'Jews' (I presume you mean Israelis) to learn lessons from Shakespeare? He was a fiction writer, but they have their own history and literature to inform them. Do you look to the Qran for guidance?

[andy-hughes]

Another one what?

[Ringlet]

Fine example of fitting the evidence to suit the conclusion.

[Rev. Green]

Naomi, at last I think I understand you. If you meant that Hamas went "on an utterly inhumane and disgustingly barbaric killing spree on 7 October", then I totally, 100% agree with you. There are no words to describe the evil of that group. I am sure everyone would agree.

But that was not the intended subject of this thread. Shylock was wronged: he lost money. But his intended response was disproportionate and illegal. He was persuaded that showing mercy would give the best outcome he could achieve. Israel have been wronged, their response (to innocent Palestinians, not to Hamas) is disproportionate and illegal. Showing mercy could well be the best policy for Israel: are their current actions persuading more Palestinians to join Hamas than the number of agressors that are being killed?

[naomi24]

Rev.Green.  Israel is under attack.  What do you suggest they do?

[Rev. Green]

I wish I knew. Perhaps if they were more friendly and considerate to their neighbours there would be less hostility towards them. They could start by allowing more aid into Gaza.

[naomi24]

Your 'perhaps' is a 'perhaps' too far.  Regardless of what israel does this will never end.

[Khandro]

Rev.Green: How does one respond, how would you respond?

 But before looking at cause & consequences we should dwell on what actually happened to those hundreds of Israelis.

Some of who survived have described the party scene first hand. 'The terrorists seemed to make a special target of the young women. One witness said "They were raped on the site of the rave next to their friends' dead bodies". In a scene no Israeli could have believed possible, "Some of the women were kidnapped and driven into Gaza. Many seemed to have been murdered already, others were only just alive". Videos online show Hamas parading some of these women through the streets of Gaza, blood visibly trailing from between their legs. The naked and desecrated bodies of others are spat on by the Gazans.'

If one of those unfortunate women was your, daughter/wife/ mother, would you be calling for restraint?

   

[Rev. Green]

Khandro, I would react exactly as Israel has. I would want Hamas removed from the Earth. I should demand more, and better, armaments from the USA. I would wait for a strong, westerly wind and drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza. No, let's say two nuclear bombs to make certain elimination doubly certain. Then I should try to build my arsenal for the war with Iran, Lebanon, Syria, etc.

However, I am equally sure that this is wrong. It is possibly to live fairly reasonably with one's poorer neighbours: we haven't had much trouble with the Welsh recently, not since my cousin died! Rather than spend billions on building high walls and fences, Israel could have given Gaza hospitals, or a port, or a strip of desert, a solar farm, and desalination plants, and, if relations became better, the Gazans might grow food to help feed themselves, rather than canabis to sell to buy weapons.

[Untitled]

a massacre of israeli innocents does not entitle them to go and massacre a group of unrelated innocents. it will not bring justice, it will not restore the dead to life, and it will simply result in more dead children and families. israel has the right to defend itself but it does not have the right to commit genocide.

[royfromaus]

So you think Israel has no right to go on the attack...how do you think hamas should be punished?

[Abstract1]

'Jew' does NOT equal Israeli.

[Khandro]

Hamas is an ongoing existential threat to Israel and all its citizens and has to be removed. It is totally dedicated to the complete annihilation of its state & every one of its Jewish people.

The Gaza strip was given to them by Israel and what have they done with it? Palestine is not and never was a country it is a geographical region. There is no ancient 'Palestinian' history and no Palestinian language & furthermore, they are looked down upon, if not despised, by the rest of the Arab world, and the only reason the are given large sums of money by Iran is that it too wants them destroyed. 

 

[Untitled]

"how do you think hamas should be punished?"

if they want to remove the threat of hamas they should work to restore it to the government of the palestinian authority... i.e. facilitate a fatah counter-coup and allow the palestinian authority to unify. 

[Untitled]

"

Palestine is not and never was a country it is a geographical region. There is no ancient 'Palestinian' history and no Palestinian language & furthermore, they are looked down upon, if not despised, by the rest of the Arab world, and the only reason the are given large sums of money by Iran is that it too wants them destroyed. "

and therefore... what? it's acceptable to just kill them, even the children? to destroy their homes? to deprive them all of food and water and let them rot in the sun? your rhetoric about palestinians is not a million miles from how exterminationist antisemites talk about jews. 

[Khandro]

Untitled; Do I take it then that you think Ukraine should cease fighting & allow Russia the complete the assault & overpowering of its Country?

Or for that matter should Britain have appeased Hitler & allowed his Bundeswehr to overrun & take control of us? 

 

[Untitled]

no! but i would have a problem with it if ukraine set out to kill all russians or to indiscriminately kill russian civilians en masse. ditto for britain v germany. i think both of those comparisons are rather foolish. 

[naomi24]

untitled, // i would have a problem with it if ukraine set out to kill all russians or to indiscriminately kill russian civilians en masse//

 

But Israel hasn't 'set out' to do either of those things to the Palestinians.  That response is irrational.

[Untitled]

A rear admiral in the IDF said that the goal of their bombardment was "damage and not accuracy" so it seems they're not that fussed about targeting civilians. another said that their intention was to destroy every building in gaza so...

[drmorgans]

 

Israel could try to improve its relations with its neighbours but, big but, a number of those neighbours do not want Israel to exist and do not accept the "two state solution".