Israels right to exist

[Lonnie]

There are some of you that don't think Israel should exist, and some that do, thats fair, we all have differnt viewpoints.

I'd like to know your views on the following.

Israel came into existance after WW2, after the atrocities that were committed against the Jews.

Pre WW2, in there has always been persecution of Jews, expulsions from different countries, one of which was England.

When Israel came into being, it gave Jews who went to Irael security, and jews in the Diaspora status, and to an extent, respect.

Without the nation of Israel, I think the persecutions, even in the enlightened West would still be going on.
Maybe not to the extent of before, but nevertheless, continuing.

Thats what I think, what do you think?.

[Zen]

http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/65.htm

There's something about Jews that people seem to dislike .

[Lonnie]

Thanks Zen,

Yeah, I know, Thanks for that link, it'll go well with all the other stuff I have.

But what I was after, was personal opinions for discussion, on whether the state of Israel should be, or not.

Without any malice.

[jno]

I'm not sure that other nations would have continued with the ancient practice of pogroms; the Holocaust made antisemitism deeply unacceptable, at least in Europe. I do believe it made sense to give Jews a homeland. I don't see why it should have been at the expense of the Palestinians, however - they weren't responsible for the death camps, and in fact I'm not sure there was much antisemitism among Arabs before the war. (I could be wrong there.) By rights, part of Germany should have been annexed. The Germans couldn't (and possibly wouldn't) have complained. Instead, the Palestinians lost their own homeland, mainly because the Jews claimed a divine right to it. One problem solved, another created.

Sadly, this is no longer a 'solution' to the problem. But perhaps it would have been a better idea at the time.

[Lonnie]

Hi jno,
Thanks for coming back on this, Obviously I don't live there, but I do have family over there, from my mothers side, and its a question i've asked myself, without a real answer, most of my adult life.

My mothers family, up to the creation of the state of Israel, lived in Egypt, Alexandria, (my parents met during the war), and they lived in peace and harmony with the locals, but were ejected after Israel came into being.

I think a country of their own, had to be, but as you intimate, where?.

Part of Germany, as you say, may have been a solution, but I think only short term, because nationalism and resentment would have sprung up among the post war generation.

Uganda, being part of the British Emprie was muted, but dismissed.

The palestinians at that time, were selling land to Jews escaping Europe, and Jews and Arabs were living fairly peacefully together, and as you know, it was only the declaration of the state that started all the troubles.

But in retrospect, I honestly don't think there was anywhere else in this shrinking world they could go, I think the real question should have been, 'Should they have declared a state or not', and just lived there without a nationhood, but sooner or later, I think the Arabs would have risen up against the inpouring of Jews, and it would have started again.

I posed the question, but I don't know.

[anotheoldgit]

I do not think they should have taken part of Palestine to create a homeland for the Jews, just like the Muslims it is a religion not a nationality.

I am sure the United States of America is large enough to accommodate them all.

[dancunian]

It is entirely likely that the Jews - like the Kurds, the slav macedonians or the Roma - would have been forced to create a nation within a nation and would have been castigated forever more for doing so.

[JockSporran]

Yes, Israel indeed has a right to exist.

[Lonnie]

Thanks for that Jock, much appreciated.

[mycats]

Before I start I should be clear that I am biased- I am very pro Israel.
The things that the Jewish people have suffered over hundreds of years, not just the holocaust are revolting. They were an 'easy' target because they were different, religious,and had no country, army or flag of their own.
They went to the middle east and carved out farmable land from the desert.
From the fighting to get refugee's over there to start with, all the work they did, the six day war (and all other attacks) how can they not deserve to exist?
They dont fight back - they get massacred, they do - they get condemmened.
I'm not the slightest bit surprised that after the horrors of WW2 Jews all over the world finally stood up and said ENOUGH, never again!

[Lonnie]

Hi mycats,
Thanks for your reply, what you say is very true, and as with Jock, your reply is very much appeciated.

Just a shame that others don't see it that way.

[chadad]

Are you asking whether the state of Israel should be allowed ?
Correct me if I am wrong but, Didn't Israel exist in Biblical times?
The Israelites were certainly around in those days.
If this is correct then Israel was not recently created, It was re-established.

[Lonnie]

Basically yes, thats what I was asking, because there are quite a few a/bers that don't, and I was hoping some of them might come on, to give their reasons, and thereby enter ino a decent debate on the subject, but it didn't happen.

As far as Biblical times are concerned, Israel was vanquished, leaving the twin state of Judea, so at one time, there were two Jewish states.

Palestine.
It was, and until recent times, never a state, and never had a goverment.
The name Palestine, was a Roman mispronounciation of Phillistine, and the Phillistines never came from the Middle East.
They were Imperialist invaders, much like the Saxons and Danes in this country, but unlike them, vanished from history.

Apologies if thats a bit more than you wanted.

[skepticscott]

good point, ever wonder why there has always been persecution of the jews? and incase you haven't noticed, there still is, even in the enlightened west

[Quinlad]

But why would Uganda have been any fairer than Palestine?

It's the same principle. You're compensating a people for the hardship they've suffered at the expense of a perfectly innocent country. And then wondering why people resent them.

If your child had had his dinner money stolen, you'd take it up with the bully who took it. You wouldn't go and rob the quiet lad in the corner.

[Lonnie]

skepticscott,
Yes, your right, but it wouldn't have seemed right to say that. in the light of the way I asked the question.question.

Quinlad,
I never mentioned Uganda, but the Jews would never have gone there,
I also never mentioned anything about stealing countries, but as yyou've brought it up, exactly which country was stolen?.