David Cameron

[hubblebubble]

David Cameron is attacking Labour over the NHS when it is in a better state than it was at the time of the last conservative government! What are your views?

[matty1]

Its not that much better under the labour party, job losses wards being closed most hospitals are in debt.

[Lonnie]

Thing is, Labour have been in power for ten years, more and more money is being spent on it, and its getting worse and worse.
I think after that amount of time, comparisons with other parties don't hold up.

[hubblebubble]

There have been job losses recently (which occurs in any major organisation) but overall, There are:

85,000 more nurses
32,000 more doctors

Wards are being closed but the NHS is becoming more efficient!

In what ways is the NHS getting worse and worse?

Brought back matrons to hospital wards
NHS Direct has been introduced offering free convenient patient advice
Waiting times for operations have been halved
Cancer death rates down by 12 per cent, saving 43,000 lives

I think that the press have a lot to answer for in undermining the successes. People forget how the NHS was before 10 years ago!

[matty1]

Nhs more efficent? My dad had arthritus in his hip and needed an hip replaced. It took 6 months before he seen the consultant and then when he finally got the date for the operation in the hospital it was cancelled not just once but 3 times. I have a distant relative who lives in wales she needed an operation on her hip and they cancelled it 7 times in the end she needed to do a 200 mile round trip just to get it done. However the press got a lot to answer for but i dont trust the labour as much as i dont trust the tories they claim to be different but they are becoming more the same party.

[hubblebubble]

Totally understand your point. Its sad to hear that your relatives are having difficulty getting medical treatment. I suppose statistically labour is doing well but the individual cases go unnoticed.

[coco pops]

Well we never had to do a 28mile round trip to see a doctor on weekends ,bank hol or nights, Don't see how this is progress

[NJOK]

I agree hubblebubble.

By any sensible measurement - mainly, waiting times and the number of medical staff - the NHS is better off. It's still in a dreadful state though so it's an easy point-scorer for the opposition.

Cameron is aiming his criticism at 'waste' and the use of 'bureaucrats' (the Tories' favourite whipping post). He says that decisions should be made by the people at the coal face - doctors, surgeons and nurses - and not executives.

Anyone who saw BBC2's 'Can Gerry Robinson Save The NHS?' would be aghast at the idea of doctors making decisions to improve efficiency. You've never seen people so unwilling to change the status quo.

The idea that money spent on 'bureaucracy' is a waste is just wrong. Harsh as it might sound, we need people to transform NHS Trusts into efficient business models.

And that's not the Tory way. Thank god we've had ten years away from the blues.

[hubblebubble]

I agree, NJOK.

[naomi24]

Figures are continually manipulated. NJOK - you say money spent on bureaucracy isn't a waste because we need people to transform NHS Trusts into efficient business models - but it isn't happening is it?!! They're not doing it. More and more money is being thrown at the NHS and more and more is being wasted. I don't blame the medical staff - they work their socks off - but hospitals are over-spent, wards are run at inadequate staffing levels, often with junior nurses having responsibility for whole wards, managers who know nothing about medicine are telling professionals what to do, cut-backs are made in the most crucial places and hygiene is utterly abysmal - and don't tell me it isn't because our local hospital has one cleaner to deal with the whole of a large accident and emergency department. Apart from that, my relatively young and very fit husband went into hospital overnight for a minor operation, contracted MRSA, and is now crippled - and all for the sake of a bit of money spent on cleaning and some decent disinfectant! The NHS under this government is a shambles. I've voted labour all my life, but never again. This government is a disgrace.

[chompu]

Totally agree Naomi. The cleaning services in hospitals has never been up to standard since the Tories privatised it.

[naomi24]

chompu, you're right - and it's got progressively worse ever since.

[Pippa68]

I had two babies born under Conservative power ~ fabulous care taken of us both and all was well.

Two babies born under Labour power. Came out of hospital feeling dreadful, infections had set in due to dirty hospital. I have been told that my thyroid gland packed in due to a bad throat infection following the birth of my last child.

I could give other examples of NHS failings, all concerning my family & friends. ALL since 1997. I can only speak from personal experience.

[hubblebubble]

I understand but personal experience is very limited

[naomi24]

hubblebubble - I'm not sure you do understand. The NHS is in decline, and hospitals are abysmal. There's no doubt at all that there has been an enormous decline in care and in standards of hygiene over recent years. Do you ever ask yourself why private hospitals don't have the same high infection rates as NHS hospitals? It's because private hospitals are clean and NHS hospitals are dirty. I spoke to three eminent surgeons last year, and countless nurses, and every one of them agreed that NHS hospitals are dirty - and you can check out the rates for individual hospitals on the internet. BUPA makes a point of advertising 'Clean Hospitals' - and that says it all. Do you think there's a possibility that your politics are clouding your vision.

[Pippa68]

'Personal experience is very limited'

Hmmmmm.

It is also very important when asking views on the NHS..whatelse are we supposed to base our views on?

[naomi24]

Well according to some, Pippa, we're supposed to believe the claptrap spouted by Patricia Hewitt and the lies and spin put out by this government - because that's what they're feeding us - and some of us know it. We have first hand experience of it.

[hubblebubble]

Firstly, the government do not directly manage the nhs, they raise the funds for its running. The nhs's management has let the government and the people who use the nhs down (due to poor cleanliness, as you say) through poor investment in cleaning materials etc.

The NHS has currently been losing its doctors and higher-skilled personnel to bupa (as bupa can pay doctors and nurses higher wages than the nhs).

BUPA is a business, the nhs is a service. This means that you cannot form a solid comparison between the two (as they are different in terms of managment and funding)

BUPA can charge the rates that they choose to charge in exchange for a clean, efficient service, so of course they have the funds to buy the cleaning materials and pay the doctors and nurses, in order to keep it working at a high standard.

The problem is, everyone wants a great nhs service (with brilliant cleanliness and a super-fast service) but people either are not willing to pay for it, or simply cannot pay the vast amounts that are charged by the privitised BUPA business. This is why people get a great service in BUPA and get a poorer quality NHS service.

[naomi24]

hubblebubble, do you honestly have the gall to defend filthy hospitals? NHS hospitals don't have the money to buy essential cleaning equipment you say, but they can pay innumerable managers extortionate salaries for doing a lousy job. Have you any idea how much those managers are paid - I won't say earn - and how many there are? Managers, deputy managers and deputy deputy managers, and so it goes on - just like the Civil Service -whilst front line staff - the people who count - are working long hours and short-handed - and working their socks off because to them patients come first. Like it or not, the NHS is a business now even under your beloved so-called Labour government - and it's a very badly run business at that. Furthermore it's supported by government funding - which means it's our money that's being frittered away. If the people managing our hospitals were employed in the private sector, they'd be out on their ear! I've run successful businesses, so take it from me, they haven't a clue. Can you imagine how much money would be saved if they sacked a few clerks, employed cleaners instead and bought them some decent disinfectant to work with? Sacking cleaners and employing clerks is not only immoral - it's poor economy where business is concerned. My husband went in for a minor operation and ended up having four operations - two of them major - spending several months in hospital - and ending up crippled. How much did that cost the NHS - thousands and thousands of pounds just for one patient - and how many more are there like him? The reason BUPA hospitals are clean is because they are efficiently managed - it's a simple as that. You're talking out of the back of your hat. Take yourself off around a few hospitals and have a look for yourself - open your eyes and go and ask questions on the front line - and just hope to god you never need their services.

[BenDToy]

Hubblebubble asks in what ways the NHS is getting worse, and then dismisses the answers as irrelelevant.
So statistically New Labour are doing well.
Anybody who believes any "statistics" spun out by Mr Liar and his incompetent cronies may even believe that Gordon Brown has a competent record as Chancellor. The NHS is in crisis despite the hiuge amounts of money thrown at it(think dentists, MRSA, doctors unable to get jobs, spiralling costs, misinformation, fiddled results, and no improvement) as is the economy (4.8% RPI inflation, pensions crisis, sky high taxation, gold bullion sell off) and our foreign policy (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan). This is the man who told us that the Iraq invasion was about Weapons of Mass Destruction, created statistics to prove they existed, and then hounded to death the man who suggested they might not be entirely reliable. Is there anyone out there who believes a word this corrupt and sleazy man and his partners in crime say?
As with most NL fans, hubblebubble seems to be capable of double think. Apparently the NHS problem is, partly at least, due to doctors leaving to join BUPA, but applauds the fact that there are 32,000 more of them??? And we know there are thousands of doctors out there who can't get jobs. In addition they claim the credit for the "successes", however unbelievable they may be, and blame the managers for the failures. With logic like that amongst the electorate, I can understand how they got elected!! We have the government that most of you deserve!