Ex soldiers to run the first Boot Camp in Greater Manchester

[Bobbisox]

in two years time, if it is a success then others will follow.
As yet, I haven't seen anything to say it takes on 16+ , it is aimed at unruly school kids to give them a direction in life,
Already the School head teachers are against such a move..
what do you think?
Will it work?

[Bobbisox]

on the other hand RATTER it could give them a sense of team building?

[RATTER15]

I agree Bobbi, it is something that would need to be handled very carefully for it to work.

[Bobbisox]

yes RATTER, I, like you, am very sceptical about it and think it could be knee-jerk reaction from the riots?

[e.crespo]

andy-hughes: "I think the perception of the 'older generation' that militarty style discipline is the answer to society's ills is misplaced".
I do hope that isn't a response to my earlier contribution, because my experience had nothing to do with "militarty style discipline" and perhaps if you were to watch the Panorama programme on iplayer that I highlighted you might be able to see past your preconceived ideas.

This idea is not a result of the recent riots and the article I highlighted in my earlier post, from the Telegraph was in response to the Panorama programme from February. To quote from the Telegraph,"With Vivian White reporting, the programme visited Lordswood school in Birmingham, an inner-city comprehensive where one in 12 teachers are ex military and there’s a popular cadet force. What it found there was inspiring", and "The results at Lordswood spoke for themselves: gang-related violence is down, academic performance up. Panorama also visited a school in the US which embraces “troops to teachers”, a similar scheme which has had impressive results, with ex-military teachers sticking in tough schools twice as long as their counterparts and getting better results".

I don't think that corporal punishment and deprivation is part of the initiative, but I did watch the Panorama programme and thought it worth consideration at least, the children in the school didn't appear to be battered, cowed or brutalised but appeared engaged and interested.

[jake-the-peg]

The Guy behind this was interviewed on Radio 4's program this morning.

He was challenged on having unqualified people teaching kids.

He claimed on air that the teachers would all have to be qualified in their area - which seemed to be against what the other party's had at first heard.

However they would not be extected to take any additional training in teaching.

I can easily see why head teachers are aginst having schools with "teachers" unqulified in teaching.

If they are actually planning to have soldiers qualified in what they are teaching I suspect they will have some difficulties finding ex-service personel with degrees in Maths, and Science and Geography, French etc.

And If they do find them convincing them to teach is another thing entirely.

All in all it sounds rather poorly thought out to me

[andy-hughes]

No e.crespo - my post was not aimed at you specifically.

It's the result of having parents from the war generation who believed that a hair cut and two years in the army was a cure-all for all of society's ills then, and now - and as i have pointed out, I believe that may be true for a section of society - but society by definition, is not one section, but a whole made of myriad sections, which makes the problems, and solutions far more complex than a little right-wing knee-jerking from the government can solve.

[jake-the-peg]

I think you have to be a little careful about taking reports like that from the Telegraph at face value.

They do have a bit of an agenda

And Panaroma's not the beacon of impartiality it once was either!

The Ofstead report shows improvement but with a lot more to come - they seem to associate a lot of it with better staff accountability and management

http://ofsted.biz/fil...446205&type=1&refer=0

[sandyRoe]

There used to be an institution called Borstal. Most of the staff were ex-service. They'd still be operating if it could have been shown that they worked. It will probably be the same with these boot camps.
There was also the 'short sharp shock' during Thatchers time. It didn't work, either.

[e.crespo]

I appreciate there are short comings with newspaper articles and Panorama programmes, which are barely 30 minutes long, however when I watched the programme I did think that the children were interested in being in school and perhaps that was a big deal for them and at least a start.

[jake-the-peg]

or perhaps they were interested in being on TV?

"Songs of Praise" phenominum where empty churches are suddenly full the moment a camera crew shows up

[modeller]

andy//it is ironic tha the current Education Secretary trumpets about giving discipline 'back to schools', when it was his party that took it away in the first place!!!!// When ? How ?

[DrFilth]

i think it would be nice for the people in charge to be honest so they could be trusted and set a good example for the young people


>>Michael Gove reportedly claimed £7,000 for furnishing a London property before 'flipping' his designated second home to a house in his constituency, a property for which he claimed around £13,000 to cover stamp duty. Around a third of the first £7,000 was spent at an interior design company owned by Gove's mother-in-law. Gove also claimed for a cot mattress, despite children's items being banned under the Commons rule. Gove said he would repay the claim for the cot mattress, but maintained that his other claims were "below the acceptable threshold costs for furniture" and that the property flipping was necessary "to effectively discharge my parliamentary duties". While he was moving between his multiple homes, he stayed at the Pennyhill Park Hotel and Spa, charging the taxpayer more than £500 per night's stay. <<

[rov1100]

From what I gather this is to be a voluntary scheme....so a dead loss from the start.

It should be made compulsory or the kids that need the discipline won't get it!

[neil42]

The poor little darlings do not need expensive boot camps.What they need is .....
1. Small room
2.Let out 1 hour a day
3.No playstation
4.No tv
5.Minimum 5 year sentance

[Bobbisox]

trouble is neil, the prisons are full , and they know it :-)

[neil42]

Thats there problem Bobbisox,if they dont want to go in there ,behave,tow the line and dont get into trouble.

[Bobbisox]

I think rov has hit the nail on the head, they will never 'volunteer' to be disciplined!

[Carakeel]

As a child I attended a military high school for a few years and before that a boarding school run by Ursuline nuns, at the time considered the most strikt or teachers. I have to say the nuns were in the most part scary, although there were one or two who were lovely. There were a lot of things that I found wrong with the boarding school, but I must admit I did get a good education there and still have, along with many bad memories, some very good ones. The military high school was an American one and partly staffed by ex-soldiers. Disciplin was high on the agenda as far as the education side of things and manners / behaviour were concerned. But the school also had an amazing social life, which was admittedly very American and a bit over the top. Still, the balance was good and the school taught us respect for others and gave us a healthy amount of discipline and a good education. If you didn't behave in an appropriate manner, you had your social activities cut and had to do things like clean out lockers, help out with teaching activities, wash the main hall floor at the busiest time, so when all the other students were around to see you do it, etc. It may sound harsh to some, but we had very little trouble at that school and it was a fun school to be at. So, I am not against using ex-soldiers, as long as they have been retrained and do not use abusive behaviour or tactics to get across to these children. There are many ways of teaching discipline. I don't like the way American boot camps are run, but the mindset or taking responsibility for your actions that is taught is something these children need to learn. So I think this has to be handled with great care, so as not to make these youngsters even harder than they already think they are. I still think though that it was my parents who were my primary teachers and that is often what is lacking today!

[Khandro]

If a boot camp means big men shouting at little guys, well,- most of them have had that. Did anyone ever see a documentary several years back called 'The last chance waggon train'. A group of youngsters on the very cusp of jail sentencing went, with experienced leaders, across the USA with horses and waggons following the route of early settlers. They all had to be responsible for the horses and one another. It was a very successful (albeit expensive) scheme. Obviously it can't be replicated here , but the underlying principle is a sound approach.