ChatterBank0 min ago
So has Dictator Dave really won?
46 Answers
Dave has now shown his true colours and indeed now seems to be proved as an opportunistic liar and virtually a dictator.
Europe is not a single party issue nut denying the public a vote when you nkow that the majority are not happy with the situation is. Dave now shows he is unwilling to listen to the public, just like Blair and Brown before him and worse he is prepared to bully MPs that would like to represent their voters. And Milliband for allhis shouting is not much better.
Will this break the Tories? I for one have ersigned my membership of the Tory party and will no longer vote for them after 30 odd years of support. Will others do the same?
Europe is not a single party issue nut denying the public a vote when you nkow that the majority are not happy with the situation is. Dave now shows he is unwilling to listen to the public, just like Blair and Brown before him and worse he is prepared to bully MPs that would like to represent their voters. And Milliband for allhis shouting is not much better.
Will this break the Tories? I for one have ersigned my membership of the Tory party and will no longer vote for them after 30 odd years of support. Will others do the same?
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You suggesting that Europe has no influence on the laws we are obliged to pass then ? If it comes to that, we are also part of the world, I don't want all countries having a say in what laws we pass in this country. You are trying to dismiss the EU influence, I am unconvinced.
No I didn't vote for them. And yes local issues should be decided locally. One can not reasonably compare the influence within a nation state to influence from outside it. It's a question of a nation's sovereignty.
No I didn't vote for them. And yes local issues should be decided locally. One can not reasonably compare the influence within a nation state to influence from outside it. It's a question of a nation's sovereignty.
This question is not about the relative pros and cons of being in the EU. It is about the democratic process which took us in and is continuing to keep us there against (what most polls tell us) is a sizeable majority in favour of withdrawal or renegotiation.
“. those member of the public that he would be listening to are the idiots who think that the EU has some connection with the European Court of Human Rights, or that the there is a rule from the EU requiring square bananas and other such ridiculous cr@p but out by the likes of the DM.”
You do the British public a grave disservice, rojash, by suggesting that their politicians are the only ones who know what’s good for them. The idea of democracy is that the views of the majority prevails (however unpleasant those views might be to some). The electorate in the UK comprises some forty odd million people, not 650. Parliamentary democracy is all fine and dandy provided the representatives reflect the will of their constituents. In the UK they do not.
“I keep asking Euro-skeptics why they think all the major party leaders want us to remain in Europe - what it is they think they have to gain. I never get any answers”
Yes you do, jake. I (and others) keep on suggesting that the Euro gravy train is a lucrative second career for failed or never successful politicians. Additionally it has benefits for large organisations (such as yours) which save them huge sums of cash. Unfortunately they don’t share those savings with the taxpayers who pay to keep the gravy train on the rails. It would be interesting if you could establish whether your company would cut and run from the UK in the event of our withdrawal. They might talk a good talk when it comes to such a question, but the proof of the pudding...
“It's like people in Hampshire saying why should we be dictated to by the London Government . You elected them”
Yes jake, but the people of Hampshire had a voice in electing their MP. People in the UK did not have a voice in electing the people in Europe who make the decisions (the EU Commissioners).
It is clear that all the major parties have no time to listen to the large numbers of people who want this matter aired. If a referendum was held and it was “won” by the government (I still don’t know how a referendum can be won or lost) most of us (including me) would shut up. But until the matter is tested and the will of the majority acted upon, I think it will run and run.
“. those member of the public that he would be listening to are the idiots who think that the EU has some connection with the European Court of Human Rights, or that the there is a rule from the EU requiring square bananas and other such ridiculous cr@p but out by the likes of the DM.”
You do the British public a grave disservice, rojash, by suggesting that their politicians are the only ones who know what’s good for them. The idea of democracy is that the views of the majority prevails (however unpleasant those views might be to some). The electorate in the UK comprises some forty odd million people, not 650. Parliamentary democracy is all fine and dandy provided the representatives reflect the will of their constituents. In the UK they do not.
“I keep asking Euro-skeptics why they think all the major party leaders want us to remain in Europe - what it is they think they have to gain. I never get any answers”
Yes you do, jake. I (and others) keep on suggesting that the Euro gravy train is a lucrative second career for failed or never successful politicians. Additionally it has benefits for large organisations (such as yours) which save them huge sums of cash. Unfortunately they don’t share those savings with the taxpayers who pay to keep the gravy train on the rails. It would be interesting if you could establish whether your company would cut and run from the UK in the event of our withdrawal. They might talk a good talk when it comes to such a question, but the proof of the pudding...
“It's like people in Hampshire saying why should we be dictated to by the London Government . You elected them”
Yes jake, but the people of Hampshire had a voice in electing their MP. People in the UK did not have a voice in electing the people in Europe who make the decisions (the EU Commissioners).
It is clear that all the major parties have no time to listen to the large numbers of people who want this matter aired. If a referendum was held and it was “won” by the government (I still don’t know how a referendum can be won or lost) most of us (including me) would shut up. But until the matter is tested and the will of the majority acted upon, I think it will run and run.
Old_Geezer
The e-petiton got 0.22% of eligible voters to sign. That is a pathetic number and proves nothing. I would want 25% or even 50% before a referendum should even be considered.
Every Conservative leader since the second world war has supported the UK being part of Europe. At the election the Conservatives were elected on a policy of us staying in Europe. If some Tory MPs got elected by promising their constituents something that wasn't in their own manifesto, then they are the ones who have cheated the electorate.
The e-petiton got 0.22% of eligible voters to sign. That is a pathetic number and proves nothing. I would want 25% or even 50% before a referendum should even be considered.
Every Conservative leader since the second world war has supported the UK being part of Europe. At the election the Conservatives were elected on a policy of us staying in Europe. If some Tory MPs got elected by promising their constituents something that wasn't in their own manifesto, then they are the ones who have cheated the electorate.
Yes. So did Labour. So did the Lib Dems (over 88% of MPs).
The electorate has no realistic chance of having its views heard, let alone acted upon. 650 people have decided the issue - probably the most important issue around for many people at the moment. And those 650 are not representing the wishes of the majority of their constituents to such a degree that they won't even put it to the test.
It is no use saying we have a parliamentary democracy. We do not. We have a parliamentary dictatorship.
The electorate has no realistic chance of having its views heard, let alone acted upon. 650 people have decided the issue - probably the most important issue around for many people at the moment. And those 650 are not representing the wishes of the majority of their constituents to such a degree that they won't even put it to the test.
It is no use saying we have a parliamentary democracy. We do not. We have a parliamentary dictatorship.
// As the Tories are seen as probably the most Euro sceptic of the main parties, i.e. those few likely to gain power, I don't believe claiming they were elected on a pro Euro ticket is very convincing. //
Old_Geezer. This is what you voted for if you voted Conservative...
The Conservative Party Manifesto 2010:
// We will be positive members of the European Union but we are clear that there should be no further extension of the EU’s power over the UK without the British people’s consent.
European countries need to work together to boost global economic growth, fight global poverty, and combat global climate change.
The European Union has a crucial part to play in enabling the countries of Europe to meet these great challenges of the 21st century. A Conservative government will play an active and energetic role in the European Union to advance these causes. //
We believe Britain’s interests are best served by membership of a European Union that is an association of its Member States. //
Old_Geezer. This is what you voted for if you voted Conservative...
The Conservative Party Manifesto 2010:
// We will be positive members of the European Union but we are clear that there should be no further extension of the EU’s power over the UK without the British people’s consent.
European countries need to work together to boost global economic growth, fight global poverty, and combat global climate change.
The European Union has a crucial part to play in enabling the countries of Europe to meet these great challenges of the 21st century. A Conservative government will play an active and energetic role in the European Union to advance these causes. //
We believe Britain’s interests are best served by membership of a European Union that is an association of its Member States. //
You know as well as I do , jno, that UKIP has no chance of being elected in sufficient numbers to form a government. The electorate has to make the best of what it has and is currently struggling to have its wishes enacted in all manner of issues, not only this one.
The “manifestos” of each of the three major parties are so similar on major issues that they could have been copied from each other. It is a great shame that MPs listen more to their Party Whips than they do to their constituents. If that’s democracy then I’m a banana!
The “manifestos” of each of the three major parties are so similar on major issues that they could have been copied from each other. It is a great shame that MPs listen more to their Party Whips than they do to their constituents. If that’s democracy then I’m a banana!
Or; didn't know about it. were unable to vote on it, or even not that excited by it. So if the reason, as you suggest, is that only 0.22% of the electorate are concerned about the EU, then surely a referendum would resolve the matter forever.
Or is it just possible that, as everyone else but you readily accepts, a referendum would generate a result that the potential gravy train passengers would not like?
Or is it just possible that, as everyone else but you readily accepts, a referendum would generate a result that the potential gravy train passengers would not like?
BenDToy
You seem more concerned about hammering the gravy train passengers than about British jobs and trade. 57% of exports go to EU countries. And the 55% of imports would undoubtedly get dearer if we were not part of the single market. In short, if we left, our exports would be subject to tariffs which would make them a lot dearer.
If the British public are given the choice of leaving the EU and putting 3.5million people out of work, or staying in, I don't think the result would be quite as emphatic as you imagine.
You seem more concerned about hammering the gravy train passengers than about British jobs and trade. 57% of exports go to EU countries. And the 55% of imports would undoubtedly get dearer if we were not part of the single market. In short, if we left, our exports would be subject to tariffs which would make them a lot dearer.
If the British public are given the choice of leaving the EU and putting 3.5million people out of work, or staying in, I don't think the result would be quite as emphatic as you imagine.
I was not going to get involved with the pros and cons of membership, but must react. Where on earth do you get these numbers from, Gromit?
Who on earth calculated that more than 3 million jobs would be lost if we left the EU. As I asked DaveTheDog in an earlier question, what makes you think that if we left the EU our trade with the remaining EU nations would suddenly cease or decline dramatically? Believe it or not, non-EU nations trade perfectly well with nations both inside and outside the EU. Mutually beneficial and profitable trade is not the exclusive preserve of EU nations.
As far as “tariff’s” are concerned, Free Trade associations (which was what the UK public were conned into believing the “Common Market” was) exist and their members thrive without being shackled to the EU.
As far as jobs go, membership of the EU has seen at least a million people come to the UK and fill jobs which might have been available (if they could be persuaded to do them) to UK citizens.
Who on earth calculated that more than 3 million jobs would be lost if we left the EU. As I asked DaveTheDog in an earlier question, what makes you think that if we left the EU our trade with the remaining EU nations would suddenly cease or decline dramatically? Believe it or not, non-EU nations trade perfectly well with nations both inside and outside the EU. Mutually beneficial and profitable trade is not the exclusive preserve of EU nations.
As far as “tariff’s” are concerned, Free Trade associations (which was what the UK public were conned into believing the “Common Market” was) exist and their members thrive without being shackled to the EU.
As far as jobs go, membership of the EU has seen at least a million people come to the UK and fill jobs which might have been available (if they could be persuaded to do them) to UK citizens.
You are correct - given that particular choice I would not vote to leave the EU . That is of course not the choice though is it? This isjust the usual scaremongering and ludicrous tactics from the pro-EU lobby!
I am not against a trading agreement, which is what we were offered last time it went to a referendum. I am against creating one-size-fits-all political and financial integration of random nations, and the unilateral transfer of decision making power to a layer of unelected beaurocrats in Brussels (and of course the 1 week per month in Strasbourg when the 650 MEPS and their extensive entourage re-locate there at massive expense to appease the French.)
This country and our businesses are lumbered with implementing rafts of EU driven legislation which other member states just thumb their noses at - and they openly laugh at our attitude. And I am exposed to this on a daily basis in the course of my job.
And when you say our exports would get a lot dearer, how much do you think that is? For example do you know what tariffs US companies pay to export into the EU? Whatever it is doesn't seem to stop them. Norway and Switzerland do remarkably well for countries who have dodged the bullet. I would swap their standard of living with ours any day of the week.
I am not against a trading agreement, which is what we were offered last time it went to a referendum. I am against creating one-size-fits-all political and financial integration of random nations, and the unilateral transfer of decision making power to a layer of unelected beaurocrats in Brussels (and of course the 1 week per month in Strasbourg when the 650 MEPS and their extensive entourage re-locate there at massive expense to appease the French.)
This country and our businesses are lumbered with implementing rafts of EU driven legislation which other member states just thumb their noses at - and they openly laugh at our attitude. And I am exposed to this on a daily basis in the course of my job.
And when you say our exports would get a lot dearer, how much do you think that is? For example do you know what tariffs US companies pay to export into the EU? Whatever it is doesn't seem to stop them. Norway and Switzerland do remarkably well for countries who have dodged the bullet. I would swap their standard of living with ours any day of the week.
NJ, I know Ukip has no chance of making headway under the present voting system. But the voting system WAS put to a referendum - and change was rejected. So UK voters have opted for a system in which Ukip is frozen out, in which manifestos are identical, which amounts to parliamentary dictatorship, and so on.
I voted for change myself - but I have to accept the majority verdict.
I voted for change myself - but I have to accept the majority verdict.
The issue is not the electoral voting system, jno. It is that MPs and ministers are ignoring the wishes of the electorate.
All three main parties stood at the election on the basis of retaining the status quo on Europe, thus giving the electorate no realistic prospect of change. But numerous polls of varying validity have shown that there is a call by well over 50% of the population for a referendum on our current relationship with the EU. MPs know this yet yesterday they voted by about 4.5 to 1 to deny the electorate a voice on what is probably the most important issue that concerns many people at the moment.
As I have said repeatedly, they are there to ensure the wishes of the electorate are at least canvassed and preferably acted upon. Yet the PM and ministers suggest that such a vote would be a “distraction” from more important issues. Europe lies at the heart of many of these important issues for God's sake!.
If the EU project is so wonderful, put it to the vote (oh no, I forgot, we’re all too ignorant and stupid for that). I really don't think I can say any more.
All three main parties stood at the election on the basis of retaining the status quo on Europe, thus giving the electorate no realistic prospect of change. But numerous polls of varying validity have shown that there is a call by well over 50% of the population for a referendum on our current relationship with the EU. MPs know this yet yesterday they voted by about 4.5 to 1 to deny the electorate a voice on what is probably the most important issue that concerns many people at the moment.
As I have said repeatedly, they are there to ensure the wishes of the electorate are at least canvassed and preferably acted upon. Yet the PM and ministers suggest that such a vote would be a “distraction” from more important issues. Europe lies at the heart of many of these important issues for God's sake!.
If the EU project is so wonderful, put it to the vote (oh no, I forgot, we’re all too ignorant and stupid for that). I really don't think I can say any more.
rojash, i may know something about Greece, that doesn't mean that i speak the language, come on that's rather unfair wouldn't you say. Hoi polloi, has always been used, at least where i come from, as a derogatory term for rabble. As NJ has pointed out, we have not been given the choice whether we remain in the EU or not, or at least see that the terms are renegotiated, no referendum means we lose, they win. And i did vote Tory, not Lib Dem, who i see as the elephants in the room.
New Judge you seem to be ignoring the constitution of the country
We don't live in a country run by the people this isn;'t ancient Greece
We have a representative democracy where we vote for representatives to run the country.
They make decisions and take responsibility for those decisions.
I dare say if we all voted on the country's fiscal policy taxation would be at a flat rate 10% and we'd all be broke before the end of the year.
That's the problem with referendums nobody takes responsibility for the decisions.
When were out of the EU and there's no foreign investment coming in, and unemployment is at 50% it's a bit late to say "ooops"
We don't live in a country run by the people this isn;'t ancient Greece
We have a representative democracy where we vote for representatives to run the country.
They make decisions and take responsibility for those decisions.
I dare say if we all voted on the country's fiscal policy taxation would be at a flat rate 10% and we'd all be broke before the end of the year.
That's the problem with referendums nobody takes responsibility for the decisions.
When were out of the EU and there's no foreign investment coming in, and unemployment is at 50% it's a bit late to say "ooops"
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