ChatterBank0 min ago
Over seven days of Christmas, 14 people met violent deaths, why?
43 Answers
http://www.dailymail....ivilised-society.html
Regardless of what some would have us believe, Britain is more violent than it was 60 years ago.
Here is the sad proof of how it is getting more and more violent with each passing day.
Regardless of what some would have us believe, Britain is more violent than it was 60 years ago.
Here is the sad proof of how it is getting more and more violent with each passing day.
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IggyB
/// regardless of what some would say the world, and this country especially, is significantly better than it was 60 years ago.
How old are you? The world or this country are not better than they were 60 years ago.
/// Murder rate lower, crime lower, ///
Also not true.
/// life expectancy higher, ////
That is true for some, but in some other regions of the world, not true I'm afraid.
/// standards of living higher, disposable income higher, ///
Once again only for some.
/// chances of getting involved in a war lower ///
Definitely not true at all.
/// regardless of what some would say the world, and this country especially, is significantly better than it was 60 years ago.
How old are you? The world or this country are not better than they were 60 years ago.
/// Murder rate lower, crime lower, ///
Also not true.
/// life expectancy higher, ////
That is true for some, but in some other regions of the world, not true I'm afraid.
/// standards of living higher, disposable income higher, ///
Once again only for some.
/// chances of getting involved in a war lower ///
Definitely not true at all.
DT - // At circa 10 murders per million, the UK ain't bad....... //
The OP was comparing UK murder / violence rates now with those of years past, not UK rates with those of other countries.
I don't usually agree with AOG's views but I'm starting to sympathise with him now, seeing the pathetic arguments offered against him.
The OP was comparing UK murder / violence rates now with those of years past, not UK rates with those of other countries.
I don't usually agree with AOG's views but I'm starting to sympathise with him now, seeing the pathetic arguments offered against him.
As usual, a poorly based post from the AOG/Daily Mail Axis of Doom.
No figures have yet been published for the total number of murders in 2011, so because there has been a cluster of cases recently does not mean the overall yearly figure will be substantially higher than last year.
From 1900 the murder rate gradually declined reaching its lowest point in 1960. But between 1960 to 1995 it doubled. And for the last 16 years it has been declining again.
So the OP has it the wrong way round. The question we should be asking is why is the murder rate declining?
No figures have yet been published for the total number of murders in 2011, so because there has been a cluster of cases recently does not mean the overall yearly figure will be substantially higher than last year.
From 1900 the murder rate gradually declined reaching its lowest point in 1960. But between 1960 to 1995 it doubled. And for the last 16 years it has been declining again.
So the OP has it the wrong way round. The question we should be asking is why is the murder rate declining?
You seem to have absolutely no idea what constitutes proof do you?
Picking out a number like this and parading it about as evidence without context is about par for the course though
Shall we try some context?
The Murder rate is at it's lowest in 12 years (or it was at the begining of the year)
http://www.guardian.c...-rate-lowest-12-years
down from 644 to 619
So you would expect 12 murders so 14's hardly shocking
If you would like to actually try something a bit more challenging that the Mail perhaps I could suggest this parliamentary research paper - you'll like it, it backs you up
A bit
http://www.parliament...rch/rp99/rp99-056.pdf
The murder rate in 1952 *was lower" about 400 but the population was lower too about 50 million as opposed to 62 million today
So there were about .8 murders per 100,000 then compared to about 1 now
It's significant and regrettable but reading the Mail you'd think it had doubled or trebled
Picking out a number like this and parading it about as evidence without context is about par for the course though
Shall we try some context?
The Murder rate is at it's lowest in 12 years (or it was at the begining of the year)
http://www.guardian.c...-rate-lowest-12-years
down from 644 to 619
So you would expect 12 murders so 14's hardly shocking
If you would like to actually try something a bit more challenging that the Mail perhaps I could suggest this parliamentary research paper - you'll like it, it backs you up
A bit
http://www.parliament...rch/rp99/rp99-056.pdf
The murder rate in 1952 *was lower" about 400 but the population was lower too about 50 million as opposed to 62 million today
So there were about .8 murders per 100,000 then compared to about 1 now
It's significant and regrettable but reading the Mail you'd think it had doubled or trebled
// The world or this country are not better than they were 60 years ago. //
Nothing nasty happened in 1951.
// John Straffen was released from a mental institution in February 1951 and had, by August, strangled two small girls, Brenda Goddard and Cicely Batstone, both aged only 5. in the town of Bath. He did it, he claimed, to annoy the police. In October he appeared before a Taunton court, he was found unfit to plead and was sent to Broadmoor secure unit. //
// Mr. Youll, 43, known as Ted, worked for Hornigold’s Taxis. He picked up two men at Middlesbrough railway station between 6.20 and 6.25 p.m. on the evening of Friday, November 16th, 1951. They murdered him outside his taxi, dumped his body at the entrance to a farm, and then drove the taxi to a point four miles from where they left the body, before abandoning it. The motive was a mystery – Mr. Youll’s takings of £4 were still on him. //
Nothing nasty happened in 1951.
// John Straffen was released from a mental institution in February 1951 and had, by August, strangled two small girls, Brenda Goddard and Cicely Batstone, both aged only 5. in the town of Bath. He did it, he claimed, to annoy the police. In October he appeared before a Taunton court, he was found unfit to plead and was sent to Broadmoor secure unit. //
// Mr. Youll, 43, known as Ted, worked for Hornigold’s Taxis. He picked up two men at Middlesbrough railway station between 6.20 and 6.25 p.m. on the evening of Friday, November 16th, 1951. They murdered him outside his taxi, dumped his body at the entrance to a farm, and then drove the taxi to a point four miles from where they left the body, before abandoning it. The motive was a mystery – Mr. Youll’s takings of £4 were still on him. //
// Christine Butcher, 7, told her friends. Knowing that the famous American boxer was in Windsor preparing for his big fight with the English boxer Dick Turpin, she set off on Sunday, July 8th, 1951 to find her hero at the hotel where she knew he was staying.
But in Home Park, Windsor, she was raped and killed, then raped again after death. Her body was found in long grass by the river, under the shadow of Windsor Castle. Because of advances in forensic techniques, the case is still regularly reviewed by Thames Valley Police. //
But in Home Park, Windsor, she was raped and killed, then raped again after death. Her body was found in long grass by the river, under the shadow of Windsor Castle. Because of advances in forensic techniques, the case is still regularly reviewed by Thames Valley Police. //
I don't understand, AOG, why you seek out these negative reports of events all the time - we are perfectly able to find them for ourselves, if we wanted to. It may be real life, it certainly happens all the time, Christmas or not, but I for one don't need constant reminders of it, nor arguments at this time of year about the whys and wherefores.
I have just done some compilation of the data and analysis of the numbers and like all these things, stats can tell various stories.
I looked at the UK population figures pinning the numbers around the census (years ending ---1) and then World Bank estimates for 09/10/11
Murder numbers fom Central Justice Stats and also cross referenced on the MurderUK site and then looked at the underlying rate. This shows as follow, murders per million.
1951 - 6.5
1961 - 5.0 (exceptionally low year and 62 est at 5.7)
1971 - 8.2
1981 - 8.9
1991 - 10.8
2001 - 15.1
2008 - 10.7
2009 - 10.6
2010 - 9.9
The IRA have been taken out but one does have events like Shipman and the London Bombings in.
However numbers have come back from the peak period (thanks Tony et al for your tenure in allowing these to rise to this level). One must be fair though and this is based on all reportings. It may well be that not all murders were centrally captured for statistics purposes.
FYi there are 3500 incarcerated for murder/attempted murder at the moment - not sure where manslaughter fits in.
From "The Old Man"
I looked at the UK population figures pinning the numbers around the census (years ending ---1) and then World Bank estimates for 09/10/11
Murder numbers fom Central Justice Stats and also cross referenced on the MurderUK site and then looked at the underlying rate. This shows as follow, murders per million.
1951 - 6.5
1961 - 5.0 (exceptionally low year and 62 est at 5.7)
1971 - 8.2
1981 - 8.9
1991 - 10.8
2001 - 15.1
2008 - 10.7
2009 - 10.6
2010 - 9.9
The IRA have been taken out but one does have events like Shipman and the London Bombings in.
However numbers have come back from the peak period (thanks Tony et al for your tenure in allowing these to rise to this level). One must be fair though and this is based on all reportings. It may well be that not all murders were centrally captured for statistics purposes.
FYi there are 3500 incarcerated for murder/attempted murder at the moment - not sure where manslaughter fits in.
From "The Old Man"
// They called 22-year-old Florence Weatherall the “prettiest woman in Linby,” in Nottinghamshire. She was married and had just given birth to twins when she set out on Friday, February 2nd, 1951, to go shopping in Mansfield, leaving the babies with her mother. Her naked body was found in a ditch in Bestwood three weeks later, her clothes folded beside her, and it was clear that it was dumped there before rigor mortis set in. //
// Shortly after returning home with her shopping on the morning of Monday, November 19th, 1951, Florence Hands was found strangled near her back door.
At the post-mortem semen was found in her vagina, indicating sexual intercourse just before or shortly after death. But there was no evidence of violence apart from the strangulation, and if she were raped her attacker had replaced her clothing, which, according to the pathologist, was highly unusual in rape cases. //
I am beginning to think 1951 was not as idylic as AOG would have us believe.
// Shortly after returning home with her shopping on the morning of Monday, November 19th, 1951, Florence Hands was found strangled near her back door.
At the post-mortem semen was found in her vagina, indicating sexual intercourse just before or shortly after death. But there was no evidence of violence apart from the strangulation, and if she were raped her attacker had replaced her clothing, which, according to the pathologist, was highly unusual in rape cases. //
I am beginning to think 1951 was not as idylic as AOG would have us believe.
I just used the figures IggyB provided to argue against him, which seems fair to me.
Thanks to all who took time and effort to find out more.
There is some reason to believe that murder rates will decline in the next few years. But a large decrease is needed to return to the rates experienced in the 1950s / 1960s.
Thanks to all who took time and effort to find out more.
There is some reason to believe that murder rates will decline in the next few years. But a large decrease is needed to return to the rates experienced in the 1950s / 1960s.
It is true DT that not all murders will have been detected
It is quite likely that with increased medical techniques more are now being detected than 50 years ago
One should also adjust for the increase in population.
But most interesting lets look earlier:
1900 9.6
1910 8.1
1920 8.3
1930 7.5
and that's without adjusting for population size!
It is quite likely that with increased medical techniques more are now being detected than 50 years ago
One should also adjust for the increase in population.
But most interesting lets look earlier:
1900 9.6
1910 8.1
1920 8.3
1930 7.5
and that's without adjusting for population size!
Sorry forgot source
http://www.parliament...rch/rp99/rp99-111.pdf
http://www.parliament...rch/rp99/rp99-111.pdf
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