Should discipline be returned to the home and at schools

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail....-discipline-them.html

I agree with this Labour MP. regarding bringing back a certain amount of discipline, but I can't quite see how the smacking ban led to riots, or that it is easy for middle class parents to control their children because they can afford to send their children to private schools with it's stronger discipline and tennis lessons.

/// It was easier for middle-class parents to control their children as they could afford to pay for private schools, which have tougher discipline than state schools, as well as activities such as tennis lessons. ///

[humbersloop]

So is that the choice then? National Service or Tennis Lessons?

Hmm, Daddy or chips....

[Sqad]

I am sure that many people would agree with Mt David Lammy and certainly many teachers as well as parents.

I think that the point he is making is that working class parents are scared to "smack" their children for fear of them being taken away into some "council Institution"

I must say that i find it difficult to associate the Tottenham riots with his point about the working classes.

[anotheoldgit]

Strange even for a quiet Sunday news day, I would have thought this item would have attracted more than two posts.

[Old_Geezer]

Situations such as riots are too complex to lay the blame at any one factor. But I can see how a lack of discipline could be one of the contributory ones. It seems to me that each generation generally seems to have less respect for others and more of an egocentric attitude, which if so has to have a reason. But that said now the parents generation are also the product of a low discipline upbringing that horse may have already bolted.

[Ann]

I had many a "good hiding" (mostly deserved I would think!) - and I came from a very loving home, I can see that it taught me right from wrong........... I see nothing wrong in smacking but obviously not to injure a child, I hated to see parents smacking children round the face, thankfully mine never did.

[Andyvon]

It certainly seems that the situation has gone far too far the other way now. Most children don't seem to have any respect for adults at all now. The know they can do and say whatever they want to their parents, police officers, teachers, neighbours and adults in general. Those adults can't do anything when a child tells them to"F off" and if one of them touches the child the police are called, arrests are made, careers destroyed etc. In fact, all the adut can do is - F off! (to the smirks of the kids).

I remember hearing a police officer saying that one reason they have so much trouble with today's teenagers is that many have never been told 'No' and the police officer is the first person ever to do that. Many have no fathers at home and many single mothers have lost control by the time the child is 12. They can't do anything with that child except witter on about "You're grounded" - much to the amusement of the child who then tells them to "F off"! Something has to be done to restore respect in children for adults and society in general. That something will have to be a national initiative over a generation or so.

Anyway, what's wrong with all boys and girls serving three years National Service like they always did? An alternative would be four years Civilian Service working in the community. As things stand, most teenagers today don't have any real future - even Tony Blair admitted that in 2004 when he was PM. That's one root of the problem.

[Buenchico]

The problems with this guy's argument are (among others):
1. The UK doesn't actually have a 'smacking ban' ; and
2. He falsely assumes that 'discipline' and 'punishment' are synonymous.

Good discipline is based upon (among other things) love, mutual respect, teaching by example, clear guidelines, consistency and providing a sense of security. Yes, there may well be a need for some form of sanction against a child who 'tests the limits' but that doesn't automatically mean the infliction of physical pain.

[Andyvon]

You are right in identifying those factors Chris. Many kids today don't have those though. They have very little security for the present or the future and they certainly don't have any respect for their parent/s. Another problem is that many parenst don't give a damn about their kids anyway. I've mentioned before the number of very young kids I see at Tesco or wandering the streets at 3 and 4am.

[Ann]

Its the lack of respect to elders I can't bear to see - if we as much as dared to answer back to our parents, I would be awaiting punishment! ........ we had to ask if we could please leave the table after a meal, we always said please and thank you, could never talk while someone else was talking, never talk with your mouth full, never sing at mealtimes, we always said Grace before our meals, sit up straight at the dinner table, help Mum with the washing up or laying the table, always had to write Thank you letters for presents, always had to be home by a certain time when we were teenagers, I could go on and on .......... this was in the 50s but they are all good virtues I believe all children should have.

[Andyvon]

As children we always behaved ourselves at home, at school and in public just in case we upset an adult. We held adults (relatives and strangers) in such awe and respect that we just wouldn't do anything to upset one. The thought of telling an adult to "F off" just wouldn't enter our heads - we'd be too scared of being in trouble so we behaved. If we get a stern look or words from an adult we were terrified and wouldn't dare do whatever it was again.

My neighbour is a teacher - and she says the pupils now call teachers by their first names! No more 'Miss' or 'Sir'. No wonder there's no respect. This society has taught children NOT to respect adults and that adults can't do anything. Now we're reaping the whirlwind.

[anotheoldgit]

Some very good responses, that brought back visions of what seemed like another world.

I can go back further than the 50s, to the days when children were seen but not heard.

My most serious breach of discipline that I can still remember vividly, and what seemed to my parents as the 'crime of the century' that was to be caught with a box of matches in my trousers pocket.

These were not intended by me to be used in any act of smoking, but only to light a candle that I had in my den at the bottom of the garden, but it was still classed as a very serious matter by my parents.

Yes as a measure that would have an immediate effect on the current disciplinary problem of today's youngsters, I fully agree with the suggestion regarding the three years national service or four years community service.

[Ankou]

"I agree with this Labour MP. regarding bringing back a certain amount of discipline"

aog - what type of discipline are you advocating ?

[NOX]

I also had many a good hiding ann, it's left me with scars all over my body and a permanent brain injury. I've never hit my children, I have never needed to, and it answers nothing if you do. For a child to be well behaved because it fears ( not respects, FEARS) it's parents is utterly wrong. My kids behaved because we brought them up to by showing them with example, respecting them, explaining things to them, interacting with them and teaching them. None of that involved physical violence, and we had only ONE rule which was to treat everyone the way you would like to be treated yourself. I have also had kids living with us who had huge social problems, addictions, and had been in trouble with the police. It's amazing how treating those people like people and having a little respect in the way you deal with them alters them in no time. People do not thrive on being hit, they thrive on being nurtured.
If you think singing at mealtimes is a bad thing then I truly feel sorry for you.

[ummmm]

I wasn't smacked as a child. Never did me any harm.

[Sqad]

ummmm....at least your parents had the choice.

Present legislation has taken CHOICE away from the parents, making it illegal whether you advocate smacking or not.

I have no objection to parents who abhor the smacking of children, but I feel that taking away that choice is unacceptable.

[Zhukov]

I was"t smacked either.But I vividly recall my Dad pinning me up against a wall,by the throat!.. ..I was 17,at the time.. ..won"t tell you what I did,but it was very stupid!.. ..so I deserved that!

[ummmm]

Sqad, Smacking is not illegal though.

[Ankou]

my mum told me that smack was illegal and we should stop doing it.

[B00]

its not illegal to smack your children, as long as you don't do it with a weapon, around the head or leave a mark.