Do you agree with Christine Lagarde?

[ladybirder]

She says that the Greeks should help themselves by paying their taxes.

http://www.telegraph....paying-their-tax.html

I heard on radio 4 yesterday that there are something like 3000 swimming pools in Athens on which taxes are due. But only 300 are actually paid for. BTW the pools can be seen from the air. The Greeks have been dodging paying their taxes for years. This statement has not gone down very well in Greece or with the Greek community here in the UK.

"Greece's central bank estimates that personal income tax evasion in Greece equates to between 2.5pc and 3.8pc of GDP, while its shadow economy – made up of the trade, goods and services, both legal and illegal where taxes are not paid – grew from 24.3pc of GDP in 2008 to 25.4pc in 2010." I can't understand why the tax is not being collected if it is so well known that it's not being paid.

So do you agree with the IMF chief? Should the Greeks help themselves?

[ladybirder]

Baz I wish it worked like that and I only had to pay my tax as long as it was used on things of which I approved. Of course you would only pay yours on the same condition and Joe Bloggs and his wife as well. Ain't gonna though work is it.

[emmie]

umm i asked a friend the same question, about the unfinished properties and was told the same. Tax dodgers, overpaid public sector workers, retirement at 50, and adopting the Euro, which in hindsight wasn't a good move. They want to stay in but i can't see how, they need to bow out and try and settle some of their debts. Not going to be easy which ever way they go.

[pdq1]

Strange how a problem that is caused by the banks has cleverly been put on the ordinary Greek person. Maybe we are losing our sense of reality as the same is happening in Britain. We are all in it together to get the bloody banks out of this mess they created.

[emmie]

pdq, the banks didn't cause what has been happening in Greece, many have only themselves to blame. Germany has done very well out of Greece however, selling their goods. if a country that doesn't have the financial ability to balance their books, then they should never have been admitted to the EU in the first place. Essentially they lied about their financial status, and now it's come home to roost. They won't be the only ones either, watch Spain take a hit too.

[d9f1c7]

Yes

[jake-the-peg]

Don't lump all the struggling countries in together - they have different causes.

Greece is where it is now with unrestricted public borrowing and spending

Spain however has sufferred from a crash in a property bubble - Ireland's had the same issue.

I also think your term "bow out" is completely inappropriate- there will be nograceful bowing out. If Greece leaves the Euro they won't get bail out funds and they won't be able to borrow money - would you put your pension funds there?

It will be the largest ever national default and all the banks that have leant money to them will have to write it off as a loss causing drops in stock markets around the world.

Got a pension? - you don't want to see Greece "bow out"

[carolegif]

The problem with tax paying in these countries is that they are self-assessing. If we had that here, we would all try and get out of paying the full amount wouldn't we?
In spain you have the 'two till rolls'. You have to tell the taxman how much you think your takings will be and then pay at the end of the year. The shops then have two till rolls, one official one and one private. They work out how much each day they should earn and when they hit that target then they swap the till rolls and keep the takings on that without paying tax.
When the peseta went to the euro, the people had to get rid of their 'black money' as they call it (mostly held in private security boxes in the banks), so they bought ne houses, boats etc. so they wouldn't have to declare it for their wealth tax.

[Ellipsis]

The original, full interview makes much better reading:

http://www.guardian.c...tine-lagarde-imf-euro

There was a piece on this interview on the R4 Today programme, I think on Saturday morning. They had some Greek guy on who said (I think, paraphrasing here) "She's right that we don't pay our taxes. But the reason we don't pay them is that the [Greek] politicians are corrupt and will steal our money". That's what we're dealing with here ...

Here's the key section of the Guardian interview:
-------------------------------
So when she studies the Greek balance sheet and demands measures she knows may mean women won't have access to a midwife when they give birth, and patients won't get life-saving drugs, and the elderly will die alone for lack of care – does she block all of that out and just look at the sums?

"No, I think more of the little kids from a school in a little village in Niger who get teaching two hours a day, sharing one chair for three of them, and who are very keen to get an education. I have them in my mind all the time. Because I think they need even more help than the people in Athens." She breaks off for a pointedly meaningful pause, before leaning forward.

"Do you know what? As far as Athens is concerned, I also think about all those people who are trying to escape tax all the time. All these people in Greece who are trying to escape tax."

Even more than she thinks about all those now struggling to survive without jobs or public services? "I think of them equally. And I think they should also help themselves collectively." How? "By all paying their tax. Yeah."

It sounds as if she's essentially saying to the Greeks and others in Europe, you've had a nice time and now it's payback time.

"That's right." She nods calmly. "Yeah."
-------------------------------

[jake-the-peg]

OK - so you won't get people in the UK saying that "politicians are corrupt and steal our money"

It's a Universal truth tht people don't like paying tax and will avoid doing so if they can

The Black economy in the UK is huge - people don't hesitate to ay "cash in hand"

Sucessive Greek Governments have failed to grasp this nettle.


And before we blame it all on individuals Greece has the world's biggest shipping industry and that's trivial to avoid tax - Liberian registered vessels etc.

This is interesting

http://www.guardian.c...idance-schemes-worked

Treasury stooped Barclays trying to evade half a billion pounds worth of tax.

Perhaps theyould earn a lesson or too here

[Ellipsis]

JTP, I don't know - I'm not an expert on Greek politics.

All I do know is that here in the UK there's not tax avoidance on such a scale (relative to the size of our economy) that the head of the IMF has felt it necessary to comment on it in the light of our impending default. And that a Greek person has said they don't pay their taxes because their politicians are corrupt.

Now, either he's right and paying taxes would be a waste of time because the money wouldn't get to addressing the deficit.

Or he's wrong and it's the Greek people who are (partly at least) corrupt, by avoiding tax-paying on a massive scale and at the individual level.

Either way, it won't help the fact that Greece is now in the mess that it's in and many of the people who haven't paid taxes now don't have the money to pay them. But reducing corruption would be a start if it's at the core of the problem. It would help the money flow to the right places ...

[Brenden]

If Greece "bows out" it is going to cost the uk and other EU countries an awful lot of money - plus the fact, the Greek people may just find their way over to the UK and our benefits system.

[jake-the-peg]

I'm not saying tax avoidance isn't a problem in Greece - I'm saying that tax avoidance will most likely occur in any country where it's not strongly enforced.

As I said earlier the balme lies with sucessive Greek governments for not grasping the nettle.

Blaming Greek citizens as feckless for not paying their taxes whilst so many people in the UK engage in the black market is rather rich

[Ellipsis]

So, jake-the-peg, do you agree with Christine Lagarde or not? Or to quote the OP ...

So do you agree with the IMF chief? Should the Greeks help themselves?

[ladybirder]

Difficult to tell whether we have arrived at a consensus on this or not. Jake - your vote could really count here you know:-)

[Anngel123]

I think the Brits should sort out their own tax evaders before starting on folks abroad....

[ladybirder]

Ann thanks for your comment but it doesn't really answer the question. I am asking if you agree with Christine Lagarde's remarks about Greece when she says the Greeks should help themselves. You are not the only one who hasn't really answered the question though.

[ladybirder]

Here you go Jake, a free government app which tells you where your taxes are spent. Just put your salary details in and away you go. Might not be good for the blood pressure.

http://www.dailymail....ells-taxes-spent.html

[emmie]

ladybirder, yes they should, but quite honestly i can't see it happening, at least not for a long while.

[elgreco]

Tax avoidance in Greece is a national hobby. It is a major cause of the financial problems together with governent corruption, a vastly over-staffed and inefficient public sector work force and the lack of will by government inspectors and police to perform their duties.

[venator]

what are we doing, being in the EU with all this?

Give us a referendum and get us out of it.