Crosswords2 mins ago
The British primary school where pupils speak 31 different languages...
And what happens? 91% of student score a level four or above in English and 89% getting top marks in maths!!!
What's going on? I thought that multiculturalism wasn't working! Why are these kids outperforming their indigenous counterparts?
Come on - we have all enjoyed the 'immigration is destroying our British culture crossed with black gangs are creating no go areas' threads - should we be celebrating this fantastic story - or should we wait for those whose politics veer to the right of Genghis Khan to find the negative spin on this story?
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What's going on? I thought that multiculturalism wasn't working! Why are these kids outperforming their indigenous counterparts?
Come on - we have all enjoyed the 'immigration is destroying our British culture crossed with black gangs are creating no go areas' threads - should we be celebrating this fantastic story - or should we wait for those whose politics veer to the right of Genghis Khan to find the negative spin on this story?
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Over time I have come to realise they are pretty much exclusive. I hadn't realised that initially. Introducing elements of the culture you had before you or your family came here into the existing UK culture is one thing, but the term multiculturalism only really has meaning if there is separation of a number of cultures in the same place. Multiple cultures. This is why I have doubts about it these days that I didn't originally have.
The Jewish community you refer to is an interesting example, it being mainly religious based. To simply pray at a temple rather than a church is not of itself an example of multiculturalism, but merely of retaining a part of what is valued within an immigrant group. However as a group it is difficult to come to a conclusion as to how much integration there is. At first sight the Jewish community seems very integrated, but for reasons related both to the group and to the way the external community has behaved over the years there still seems a very marked line over who is or is not a Jew, and apparent difficulty crossing that line.
But maybe that is a discussion for another thread.
The Jewish community you refer to is an interesting example, it being mainly religious based. To simply pray at a temple rather than a church is not of itself an example of multiculturalism, but merely of retaining a part of what is valued within an immigrant group. However as a group it is difficult to come to a conclusion as to how much integration there is. At first sight the Jewish community seems very integrated, but for reasons related both to the group and to the way the external community has behaved over the years there still seems a very marked line over who is or is not a Jew, and apparent difficulty crossing that line.
But maybe that is a discussion for another thread.
You will find that of the roughly 350,000 Jewish people in the Uk english is the first languange for around 99.99%of them and has been since the majority of them came here.
Why we should it be a fantastic story that these children are actually achieving a certain standard in the languabge of the country they live in, they damn well should be speaking and writing english as their first language.
Why we should it be a fantastic story that these children are actually achieving a certain standard in the languabge of the country they live in, they damn well should be speaking and writing english as their first language.
Yes this school and it's pupils must be wholeheartedly congratulated on their achievements.
But this is one particular school and doesn't represent the academic achievements of the vast number of other schools which have such an diverse mix of nationalities and cultures.
Interesting to note that when sp1814 was challenged about the Mail telling lies he said "don't worry...I did what I did with all DM stories...I verified it elsewhere!"
One has to ask, then why did he choose to use the DM link, when they are always being accused of telling lies or putting forward their Right Wing bias, anti immigration an raciest slant on matters?
Also interesting to notice that if a headteacher had made a similar remark about black parents and their children as this head teacher made about white indigenous culture parents and their children, then there would have been cries for her resignation.
/// She said: 'I only came here seven weeks ago, but already I can't believe the respect that parents and children show teachers and the teaching profession that maybe isn't there from white indigenous cultures. ///
But this is one particular school and doesn't represent the academic achievements of the vast number of other schools which have such an diverse mix of nationalities and cultures.
Interesting to note that when sp1814 was challenged about the Mail telling lies he said "don't worry...I did what I did with all DM stories...I verified it elsewhere!"
One has to ask, then why did he choose to use the DM link, when they are always being accused of telling lies or putting forward their Right Wing bias, anti immigration an raciest slant on matters?
Also interesting to notice that if a headteacher had made a similar remark about black parents and their children as this head teacher made about white indigenous culture parents and their children, then there would have been cries for her resignation.
/// She said: 'I only came here seven weeks ago, but already I can't believe the respect that parents and children show teachers and the teaching profession that maybe isn't there from white indigenous cultures. ///
Perhaps this school is an example of the Tories 2006 proposed charter for schools if it ever came to pass.
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/// The charter also says schools should focus on literacy and the English language, even if the majority of pupils in inner city schools do not speak English as a first language. Pupils would also be taught in sets according to ability, it adds.///
/// Schools should have the freedom to pay higher salaries to attract and keep good teachers, says the charter. Schools should have the freedom to vary pay and conditions in "tough" areas.///
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/// The charter also says schools should focus on literacy and the English language, even if the majority of pupils in inner city schools do not speak English as a first language. Pupils would also be taught in sets according to ability, it adds.///
/// Schools should have the freedom to pay higher salaries to attract and keep good teachers, says the charter. Schools should have the freedom to vary pay and conditions in "tough" areas.///
When all schools that have pupils from many backgrounds can achieve this then we will have something to shout about. I suspect this will not be in my lifetime though.
As pointed out earlier in the thread I too suspect a large element of integration. When people integrate then the indigenous population find them alot easier to accept. Despite SP’s continued rants on downtrodden Afro-Caribbean people I have found that the majority integrate and certainly amongst the many I have met(admittedly second or third generation)and work with they are no different to me in any shape or form and are treated that way by all around. It is when other cultures come here and do things that make them stand out that they become targets for hate. It is interesting to find that I have found much hatred of Asians from people of Afro-Caribbean descent.
As pointed out earlier in the thread I too suspect a large element of integration. When people integrate then the indigenous population find them alot easier to accept. Despite SP’s continued rants on downtrodden Afro-Caribbean people I have found that the majority integrate and certainly amongst the many I have met(admittedly second or third generation)and work with they are no different to me in any shape or form and are treated that way by all around. It is when other cultures come here and do things that make them stand out that they become targets for hate. It is interesting to find that I have found much hatred of Asians from people of Afro-Caribbean descent.
"But this is one particular school and doesn't represent the academic achievements of the vast number of other schools which have such an diverse mix of nationalities and cultures"
Have you any proof of that AOG?
bazwillrun - how can these kids have English as a first language if their parents aren't English?
That doesn't make sense, surely?
AOG - as I've explained before - by posting from the Daily Mail, rather than the Guardian, I cannot be accused of selectively choosing stories from a source with a left wing bias. I always cross check Daily Mail stories, because sometimes they can be a little...skewed toward 'truth discrepancies'.
pdq1 - you wrote: "I'd hate to think how much extra it was costing to supply all the interpreters and extra staff needed."
I don't think each child has an interpreter? They have a buddy system, and it seems to work - remember...kids are sponges for languages.
Also, they have high SATs scores and even better, they sit alongside kids from other cultures, and when you do that, it's practically impossible to grow up ignorant, and ignorance is like fertilizer for racism.
I think it speaks for itself, doesn't it?
Have you any proof of that AOG?
bazwillrun - how can these kids have English as a first language if their parents aren't English?
That doesn't make sense, surely?
AOG - as I've explained before - by posting from the Daily Mail, rather than the Guardian, I cannot be accused of selectively choosing stories from a source with a left wing bias. I always cross check Daily Mail stories, because sometimes they can be a little...skewed toward 'truth discrepancies'.
pdq1 - you wrote: "I'd hate to think how much extra it was costing to supply all the interpreters and extra staff needed."
I don't think each child has an interpreter? They have a buddy system, and it seems to work - remember...kids are sponges for languages.
Also, they have high SATs scores and even better, they sit alongside kids from other cultures, and when you do that, it's practically impossible to grow up ignorant, and ignorance is like fertilizer for racism.
I think it speaks for itself, doesn't it?
No, not quite sp.
I have observed education in action at first hand in a number of places where there are large numbers of non-English speaking children and believe me it is truly horrendous. The resources required to teach children who do not use English as a first lanhuage, particulary at primary school, would make your eyes pop out. They may well achieve “top marks” but that is a function of the dumbing down of examinations, not a testament to the education system or multiculturalism. Why should these children have English as their first language? Because in most cases their parents were born here and have no intention of living anywhere else. English should be theirs and their children’s first language, that’s what makes sense.
The lowering of educational standards has nothing to do with us living in a different age, ummm. The standard of State education in the UK has declined alarmingly in the past forty years – a fact acknowledged by many academics and employers. The fact that many children who do not have English as a first language can achieve top marks is a credit to them for their hard work But it is not a credit to their education. It simply demonstrates that the exams they face cannot be particularly demanding.
I have observed education in action at first hand in a number of places where there are large numbers of non-English speaking children and believe me it is truly horrendous. The resources required to teach children who do not use English as a first lanhuage, particulary at primary school, would make your eyes pop out. They may well achieve “top marks” but that is a function of the dumbing down of examinations, not a testament to the education system or multiculturalism. Why should these children have English as their first language? Because in most cases their parents were born here and have no intention of living anywhere else. English should be theirs and their children’s first language, that’s what makes sense.
The lowering of educational standards has nothing to do with us living in a different age, ummm. The standard of State education in the UK has declined alarmingly in the past forty years – a fact acknowledged by many academics and employers. The fact that many children who do not have English as a first language can achieve top marks is a credit to them for their hard work But it is not a credit to their education. It simply demonstrates that the exams they face cannot be particularly demanding.
This was telling from the report:
[i]The school sometimes uses translators, as well as a ‘buddy’ system where new students are paired with one already at the school who has the same mother tongue and can help them to start picking up English words.[i]
My experience of observing education in such circumstances is that they do not “sometimes” use translators. All of the classes I observed used translators and not just sometimes but all of the time. Some of the classes I saw had six or seven people, in addition to the “teacher”, working in the classroom. This is a huge drain on resources, one which the country cannot afford and one which ought not to be necessary. As for the “buddy” system, all this means is that the education of those pupils who are fluent in English is simply held back by their “buddying” responsibilities.
Children in England should be able to speak English by the time they reach primary school age. The fact that they (and usually their parents) cannot is the fault of the parents and not a problem which should have its solution funded by the taxpayer. Can you imagine if a fee-paying school spent its resources on such indulgence? Would the parents shelling out £3k per term be more than pleased to see their hard-earned being spent tutoring a youngster who can only speak Urdu to bring him up to speed with his classmates? I think not. This is a luxury that only State schools will provide. Here’s an extract from the admission process of a fee-paying Prep school in Bristol:
Children will spend a day with us, during which there will be a classroom-based assessment in English, mathematics and reading. The Headmistress will also have an informal talk with your child. We shall then be able to assess whether we feel that your child will fit comfortably within the academic standards of the class and your child will be able to tell if he or she would be happy to join us.
A little bit to be added to the bottom:
[i]Only speak Polish at home? Don’t worry, we’ll get an interpreter in for your little one (free of charge, naturally) and arrange for one of the other applicants to “buddy up” with him to help him understand a few words of the conversation.[i]
Yeah, right.
[i]The school sometimes uses translators, as well as a ‘buddy’ system where new students are paired with one already at the school who has the same mother tongue and can help them to start picking up English words.[i]
My experience of observing education in such circumstances is that they do not “sometimes” use translators. All of the classes I observed used translators and not just sometimes but all of the time. Some of the classes I saw had six or seven people, in addition to the “teacher”, working in the classroom. This is a huge drain on resources, one which the country cannot afford and one which ought not to be necessary. As for the “buddy” system, all this means is that the education of those pupils who are fluent in English is simply held back by their “buddying” responsibilities.
Children in England should be able to speak English by the time they reach primary school age. The fact that they (and usually their parents) cannot is the fault of the parents and not a problem which should have its solution funded by the taxpayer. Can you imagine if a fee-paying school spent its resources on such indulgence? Would the parents shelling out £3k per term be more than pleased to see their hard-earned being spent tutoring a youngster who can only speak Urdu to bring him up to speed with his classmates? I think not. This is a luxury that only State schools will provide. Here’s an extract from the admission process of a fee-paying Prep school in Bristol:
Children will spend a day with us, during which there will be a classroom-based assessment in English, mathematics and reading. The Headmistress will also have an informal talk with your child. We shall then be able to assess whether we feel that your child will fit comfortably within the academic standards of the class and your child will be able to tell if he or she would be happy to join us.
A little bit to be added to the bottom:
[i]Only speak Polish at home? Don’t worry, we’ll get an interpreter in for your little one (free of charge, naturally) and arrange for one of the other applicants to “buddy up” with him to help him understand a few words of the conversation.[i]
Yeah, right.
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