So what exactly will the NHS deliver ?

[youngmafbog]

No a think tank says the NHS must cut some unnecessary services. Doe this mean we will see and end to the 'World Health' Service and non life thretening work such as sex changes and ivf for lesbians or will these expensive PC activites continue and the axe will fall, yest again, on those that work and pay?

What would you cut from the NHS?

[gina32]

how about giving barclays boss bonus to help them out??

[Gromit]

Depends which think tank you listen to.

// NHS patients should expect continued rationing of common operations for years to come, while hospital closures are “inevitable”, according to an influential think-tank. //

http://www.telegraph....warns-think-tank.html

So you may want to highlight lesbian IVF but that is just an attempt at distract us from the truth. So called normal operations like hip replacements will also be cancelled.

[Sqad]

Whether, Labour, Conservative or Coalition, there will just be ineffective and inconsequential "tinkering " around the edges.

The public don't want a change and the Politicians haven't got the stomach for a fight which would exclude then from government for the foreseeable future.

The NHS has the same major faults as it had in the 60's and 70's and will still have those faults a generation form now.

\\\What would you cut from the NHS?\\\

I would rather not answer that question.

[cathfromsaron]

why not cut medical tourism tomorrow ...

[emmie]

sqad, you should, i reckon that major pruning is required, but no government has the cojones for it

[anneasquith]

sorry sqad but i disagree, the NHS of the 60/70^s was far better than it is now, i say that as an employee for many years and a patient in recent years.

[venator]

Come on , sqad - it's not like you to dodge a question...

[venator]

I'd like to know how the ratio of manager/admin staff to medical staff has changed over say the last 25 years.

I'd like to have a putsch - select and eliminate 10% of all computers and their operators each year for the next few years,
, and see if anyone notices.

[anotheoldgit]

Those excellent suggestions by youngmabog, would be an excellent start, but I cannot see them being implemented.

No they won't be happy until they make the NHS means tested.

What they don't understand is the fact that it is not a 'free' service to all those who are paying into the fund and for all those who have paid into it over many years.

No one of the frequent excuses we constantly hear for the mess that the NHS is in, is because we are all living longer, than when the NHS was first formed.

What you never hear about is the fact that one of the problems is the huge increase in the people using the service, due to mass immigration.

[sp1814]

venator

The 10% cut in computer capabilities is a non-starter for a whole host of reasons.

What would replace them? Say if you cut processing capacity on patient records, would you replace that with pen and paper? Would you not then have to increase the number of admin staff to create, file and update the masses of patient information?

The same could be said for any company's computer systems. Going back to manually administered systems would be incredibly burdensome.

What would I cut? Well, if you cut IVF for lesbians, I think you should cut all IVF treatment. What's the point of cutting IVF treatment for such a small section of the population (lesbian couples), whilst leaving the straight couples (the vast majority of those enjoying IVF treatment) free to drain the service?

Health tourism - that sounds like a good place to start. But how does that work? I honestly don't know how someone from say, Egypt or France or Latvia gets themselves on the waiting list for a hip replacement...?

[sp1814]

AOG

But why would the service be under pressure from mass immigration, when figures show that immigrants pay more in tax than they take in benefits (I'll post a link to an admittedly old 2002) report on this.

So the question is - where is all this tax money from the immigrant population going?

What extremely expensive venture have we been waging for the last decade?

Iraq, Afghanistan and back to Iraq again. Billions and billions and billions of pounds, and what do we have to show for it?

[MoonRocker]

Just cut the layers of admin and management. Why do they always look to the actual medical services rather than the oodles of empire building bureaucrats?

[sp1814]

This is the link

http://news.bbc.co.uk.../business/2019385.stm

I'll look for some more recent findings on immigrants and the tax they pay. The question that would remain is, why isn't the extra money benefitting our services?

[sp1814]

There's THIS interesting piece quoting the Office of National Statistics...not quite the same point, but quite thought-provoking:

http://www.thenewlond...than-british-citizens

[jno]

an NHS without administrators and managers sounds like a wonderful idea, but you'd better hope you never need to use it.

[anotheoldgit]

sp1814

There have been a lot of changes in 10 years, but yes I do accept that 'working' immigrants may pay more into the kitty than they take out, but one has to ask how many are working? and what about all their elderly relatives that came with them and who have not paid a penny into the kitty, but are now enjoying all the benefits?

Regarding the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, I agree both have been a financial drain, but on the Defence budget and not on the NHS, unless you are referring to the treatment of the injured.

[MoonRocker]

I didn't say cut them all jno, just trim out the chaff.

[Duncer]

As an ex NHS administrator, manag and director I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that there are far too many in the aofrementioned positions. When I started in 1981 the Personnel department had one room on the ground floor of the maternity block. The maternity unit was moved to more modern premises and personnel, (HR to today's kids) were using every room in the old maternity unit within four years. Too many people create little empires for themselves which, in turn, create more jobs, jobs that should be taken by nursing staff and direct patient services.

Things we should prune:-

Breats implants for aspiring models whose "esteem" may suffer if they don't get them.

Cosmetic surgery for reasons of vanity, (I exclude burns victims, RTA's and the like).

Ridiculously expensive maintentance programmes for junkies.

Medical tourism.

[Zeuhl]

<sex changes>

Boggy introduces a mischievous and deliberately misleading distraction from the reality as a relatively tiny proportion is spent on that service and if you were one of the tiny minority of people afflicted; suicidal because you feel you're in the wrong sex body you may take a different view.

ivf is a moot point, should it be offered on NHS or not? Though i can't see why a lesbian (tax payer or not) should be less entitled than a heterosexual (tax payer or not) other than because of bigotry and discrimination.

Perhaps a bigger gain would be found in removing all those thousands of GP and hospital attendances every day by people moaning and snivelling with some minor or non existent illness for which they expect anti-biotics or some imaginary medical intervention.

[sp1814]

AOG

But that's not how tax and NI work.

NI isn't like a big Christmas hamper club where you pay over a lifetime to enjoy the benefits at a given time in the future.

NI and tax contributions that working citizens put into the system fund our public services now, not at some point in the future.

So if a migrant comes to the UK for work and then brings their parents over, they are already paying into the pot though PAYE.

And you also should consider the number of economic migrants who come to the UK work a number of years and leave without claiming the dole or needing NHS treatment. They are pumping tax cash into the system whilst taking nothing out.