Kenneth Clarke RIP ?

[modeller]

Now that Kenneth Clarke has been given a nothing job , will that do anything to toughen up our justice system. He is still sitting at the top table with his wishy washy Lib/Dems friends.

[PipinDorset]

Must be I'm a juvenal delinquant.....

[Mick-Talbot]

It must be the 'question mark' that is keeping the baying mob away is it?

[DTCwordfan]

Chief Inspectors Mike & DT, rather like that, Pip

[Gromit]

Mike111etc

// Gromit obviously subscribes to the George Galloway school of philosophy, wherein any remark can be twisted to suit the purpose of the opponent //

You said killing criminals works. I pointed out it does not work in the US. Not sure that is twisting any remark. I regard it as just pointing out an obvious lie.

[New Judge]

“...we have more people in prison per head of population than any country in Europe.”

That may well be true, VHG (and I believe it is certainly true of comparisons made with similar Western European nations). However, that is not the whole story. The reason we have more people per head in prison is simply that we have more people per head committing serious offences, not that we are particularly harsh. England and Wales has a fairly low rate of imprisonment (prison sentences per number of crimes committed) but one of the highest rates of imprisonment (per head of population) in the Western world. This is because we have the top rate (sometimes second to Australia) of theft and violent crimes in the developed world. For example, Spain has about half the level of this type of crime as us but a much higher rate of imprisonment for those offences(almost all offences of theft or violence in Spain lead to custody).

The reason the UK has a large number of people serving custodial sentences is not that we are too swift to incarcerate people but that we simply have large numbers of criminals living here.

[modeller]

DT and em ! I thought that you had been an Aber long enough to know when not to take words literally . #he isn't dead yet#
#I found modeller's title to this thread somewhat offensive. #
Especially as the opening sentence mentions his new non job.
However his new job is a dead end job and his old job is dead as far as he is concerned. I think RIP appropriate . I hope so maybe now we can get rid of
Abu Hamza and the other terrorists still awaiting deportation.

[New Judge]

We will never do that (at least not easily) whilst we continue to pay homage to the ridiculous European Court of Human Rights and whilst we have, on our own ststute books, the equally ridiculous 1998 Human Rights Act, modeller. Only when those two obstacles have been removed will the expulsion of dangerous individuals from our midst become straightforward.

Since none of the parties likely to form a government has these two items on their agenda I would not hold my breath if I were you. Individual members of government and opposition may talk a good talk when they are not in a position to do anything. Give them the reins of power and things suddenly and dramatically change.

[modeller]

DT #One of the quicker ways to get numbers down, get proper exiting programmes into the Forces (esp the Army) - over 15% of the population is ex Military and I believe the number is nearer 20%#
Sounds interesting could you explain .? What exciting programmes are you talking about ?
What population are you talking about , in the country or currently in jail ?

[modeller]

You are right judge and that is the problem with Cameron .
In opposition he made a major point of getting back certain powers from Europe which he obviously couldn't do because he would need the agreement of the other EU members, and in government he hasn't even tried.
What is more he appointed KC who is a major pro Europe advocate.

[Khandro]

I don't think there is much compelling evidence either, to show that custodial sentences lead to reformed characters.

[Quizmonster]

Toryism has an escutcheon? Whatever will they think of next?

[New Judge]

No, custodial sentences do not usually lead to reformed characters, Khandro. Nor do most other forms of punishment. What they do lead to is peace of mind and security for the rest of us for the all too brief periods whilst the criminals are incarcerated.

[emmie]

so you think Ken Clark whilst not actually dead, is in a dead end job, well we shall see. There is life in the old boy yet. As to getting rid of the likes of Abu Hamza, that is more the EU surely, than anything he might block.

[emmie]

I would rather we locked someone up that had committed a serious crime, those who rape, murder, cause mayhem in our communities. Perhaps prison isn't a deterrent but quite honestly what's the alternative. If the law says life in prison then that is what it should be, not serve a minimum of ten years, that's just bunkum.

[Khandro]

New Judge; If custodial sentencing is solely about punishment and //peace of mind and security for the rest of us for the all too brief periods whilst the criminals are incarcerated.// then we fail as a society.

[New Judge]

There are four aims to criminal penalties:punishment, protection of the public, reform and rehabilitation. Sentencers tailor thier penalties to include some or all of them to a greater or lesser degree. Many people who are in prison have had all manner of rehabilitative and reformative remedies tried on them and those remedies have failed. There comes a time when the only thing to do is to punish them for their misdeeds and protect the public. And that's where prison fits as the best option. To suggest we have "failed as a society" in those circumstances is preposterous.

[Duncer]

Quite.

Back to the reshuffle and an analogy I heard yesterday. It is less a case of the captain of the Titanic rearranging the deckcharis and more a case of him rearranging the icebergs.

[modeller]

Khandro # then we fail as a society #

I don't understand your answer to New Judge . Surely our duty as a society is to protect our people and especially the victims of crime. If as the judge says we have tried everything to help and reform a criminal then as a society we must protect the victims and potential victims by locking up the criminal. Would you explain what you would do instead. I'm sure societies throughout the world would be eternally grateful for your solution.

[Khandro]

modeller; you may wish to align yourself with new judge and the hordes of 'Hang 'em and flog 'em's', but you should also note that a much smaller and under-financed group of special individuals work tirelessly trying, and not without success, to steer, and re-educate. While I accept there are the insane, and psychotic, who may be beyond redemption through re-education, many prisoners do not receive //all manner of rehabilitative and reformative remedies tried on them// simply because the resources and will is non-existent.
You ask for my view, and it is the same with imprisonment of criminals , as it is with the world of business, the military, education of children, and all other areas of human endeavor, and that is 'stick and carrot'; punish those who err, and reward achievement. As a society we are strong at punishing but fail badly at the latter.
Nobody is beyond redemption, even "The most hated woman in Britain" Myra Hindley.

[New Judge]

I'm afraid that she is beyond redemption Khandro, if for no other reason than she died in 2002. However, that small matter apart, try extending your argument to her partner in crime, one Ian Brady. Not only did thid odious individual murder at least five children, but he has refused to reveal the whereabouts of the remains of one of his victims (whose mother recently died without being able to lay her son to rest), has continually tormented the families of his victims, has played the legal system to his advantage for forty-five years and is now demanding the right to choose the manner and timing of his death - something denied to his victims. Perhaps Mr Clarke might prefer to offer him a "Victim Awareness" course to secure his redemption.

For the record I believe in neither hanging nor flogging. But whilst I accept that on occasions too few resources are made available to secure rehabilitation for some criminals, in general in the UK justice system places too much emphasis on the needs of the offender and too little on the needs of victims and the general public. If that makes me a member of the "hang 'em and flog 'em brigade" then I don't think I'm in the minority.