Is it right to ban atheists ?

[youngmafbog]

It seems it is not acceptable to ban homosexuals, colored people or Muslims(quite rightly) but when it comes to non believers its perfectly acceptable to discriminate.

Should they be allowed to do this ?

http://www.thesun.co....t-believe-in-God.html

Having sad that, with the revelations coming from the US Scout movement I'm not sure I wold want my son anywhere near this lot.

[LazyGun]

Posted in R&S the other day.

http://www.theanswerb.../Question1180225.html

Short answer - no, they should not be allowed to discriminate like this, especially as they are in receipt of public money.

[B00]

Why would he want to join a religious "thing" (for want of a better word) in the first place?

Surely anyone, and im willing to bet this precocious little thing did, knows that religion plays a part in the scouting movement before they join up?

[bazwillrun]

Apart from the oath, even that i cant recall, i dont remember any religious activities when I was in the scouts as a kid.

just used to fart around in the park in our scouts uniform with my school mates and collect old newspapers, cant remember why or what they were collected for, in a trolley which was put to more use for all the bottles we would collect to take back to the shop and get the deposit money for

[LazyGun]

@Boo - I didn't, and I was a Scout, many years ago. I don't remember religion being a big deal.

Just seems wrong to me. This is an organisation dedicated to the development of young people. On their own website, they claim that "Scouting is for everyone" - patently untrue, if they are going to exclude self professed atheists.

[B00]

But it is connected with religion. apart from the promise, which pledges allegiance to God there's regular church services involved too.

[jno]

B00. I don't recall from jno jnr's younger years that religion played much part at all. I wonder if this isn't down to some unusually hardline Akela rather than an organisation-wide policcy?

[B00]

They still pledge alliegence to God, or at least A God though, I know as Mini Boo's a Brownie, and there are regular church services to attend, church parades etc.

[LazyGun]

@jno its an organisational policy, unfortunately. You can look at their website.

@Boo - you may think its no big deal, and in the overall scheme of things I guess it isnt - but it seems wrong to me, that in a secular society, committed to equal opportunities for all, regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation, a high profile youth organisation which boasts of its inclusivity and is in receipt of public funds can operate a discriminatory membership policy.... its just not acceptable, in 21stC Britain...

[B00]

Gotta disagree LG.

I don't see why he should be allowed to join an organisation which does have ties with religion (however loosely) if he disagrees so strongly with it. Why can't he join something else? Cadets possibly?

[EvianBaby]

When I was a kid I joined the brownies cause all my mates were in it and some of it was fun. The religious side was just a bit of a down side I had to do.

It's not really fair to say he shouldn't have wanted to join because he is atheist and it's not fair that's he's be banned because of it.

[jno]

in my youth Scouts and Guides were essentially non-religious organisations; pledging allegiance to God was as much a formality as pledging allegiance to the queen. Parents who wanted their children to join a religious organisation sent them off to the Boys/Girls Brigade. In more recent years, I don't believe jno jnr ever went to church in the course of scouting. But things may well have got more doctrinal since then.

[B00]

But isnt it a bit like going to a pork pie convention and screaming you're a vegetarian and demanding they give you lettuce, and if they don't have it, they must go out and get it? Oh and keep those pork pies away from me or i'll get offended?

[EvianBaby]

Not really.

[LazyGun]

@Boo - well, we all have our point of view and the world would quickly become a very boring place if we all thought the same :)

I, as an atheist, can attend a church. The church does not vet the entrants to the church by insisting that all attendees believe in a god.The church does not insist that I swear an oath to god before attending the congregation. They do not insist I pray even.or participate, or bow my head.It seemed to me back in the day, that you had a choice between the overtly religious Boys Brigade, or the more values based Scouts, and as a teenage atheist I chose the Scouts over the Boys Brigade because of that.

The Scout movement claims it is inclusive, but insists that its potential members either believe in a deity (any deity apparently, they are not restrictive in that regard) or are "searching" for one, implying that there is one to find.Scouts are expected to voice an oath to queen and country and to their god - so a truthful honest atheist is excluded from the organisation.So, presumably, they would be happy for a prospective member to profess a belief in and swear by, say Zeus, for example, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Its an absurd position to take.

This, in a secular society is discrimination, it seems to me, and I think it should be changed.

[jno]

B00, I can see where you're heading, but I'd have said more like going to a restaurant and then finding they serve only meat. Yes, you could have checked all the fine print on the menu first, but you wouldn't normally because if it's not called "The Meat-Eater's Heaven" you'd expect there to be something for pretty well everyone.

If the Scouts do want to ban someone, they should be allowed to as a private organisation. But they need to be clear about their rules: put up signs saying "No Blacks or Atheists" or whatever, and make it clear to the world that religious belief is fundamental to joining (unlike you, I don't think this is widely known).

And as a private and discriminatory body they should receive no public funding whatever.

[LazyGun]

@jno -yes, i think that would be the honest position to take. Is it right that private organisations are allowed to discriminate then? Was not aware of that...

[jno]

the Friends of Jno limits membership rigorously and I can refuse to let anyone into my house if I don't want them. I don't think it makes any difference if I say "It's because you're Mongolian", but I could be wrong there.

[anotheoldgit]

I'm afraid that I must take the opposing view once again.

The Scouts movement is bases on Christian beliefs, and it would be totally unacceptable to allow non-believers into it.

It may not be as rigid as it once was, but most Scout Groups are attached to Churches, Chapels etc and maybe Mosques now but I doubt it.

To join one must make the Scout's promise, and that includes allegiance to God & the Queen, one could say "my son doesn't hold any allegiance to God or the Queen, so why can't he join"?

These are the rules and if we are to dismiss all rules so as to fit in with various different views, then it defeats the whole purpose of a disciplined organisation.

Are we to have Atheist Choir Boys, Atheist Church Organists etc etc? Then there is the matter off attending the St George's Day Parade, which marches to church for a service.

But I find it very hard to believe that a 11 year old boy hold such strong views as regards religion, enough to stop him from joining the scouts.

I think this is coming more from his Father getting his name in the Sun newspaper, I wonder how much they paid him for the story?

[B00]

Excellent post AOG, and if you hadn't already gathered, I totally agree with you :-)

[sandyRoe]

Could the child not affirm?