british muslims

[mindbullets]

 

would it not be a good idea for the muslims of this country (and around the world )to be more public in denouncing and disowning these islamic terrorists .

perhaps they could go on a march through london to make it clear that the actions of these people are completely against thier beliefs and that the terrorists actions are not in their name.

please dont attack me if this sounds naive,just a thought.

[Dom Tuk]

Nedflanders, Bush and Blair believe in a god hence in religion. The poison is at the top of our heap. So no hope for us is there.

[MargeB]

I've wondered about that. Wouldn't put it past Tony to attend services as part of his 'public image' campaign. Bush is a 'I love Jesus cos he stopped me being an alcoholic: if you don't love Jesus you are a threat to my sanity and relapse into that worthless old life.'

Can I die please and be reborn in an era where we don't have different religions just bashing the hell out of each other in the name of 'securifying' the world?

'These people are against freedom'. Riiiiiight. Guess they just never got round to attacking Holland then...

[Brugel]

In reply to jimmer, it must be said that there would seem to be quite a few instances in the Koran where hatred towards non-Muslims is promoted. So, for example, we have "take not the Jews or Christians as friends" (5:51); "slay the idolaters wherever you find them" (9:5); "fight those who believe not in Allah" (9:29); "may Allah destroy them (Christians and Jews)" (9:30). Phrases such as these make it easy to see why some Muslims may feel they have a duty to attack those who don't share their faith.

However, I am certainly not an expert and it's possible that these extracts unfairly represent the Koran. If this is so then I stand corrected. Undoubtedly someone on the AB will be able to clarify this.

The IRA fought, I think, in defence of the Catholic community- but that isn't necessarily the same as the Catholic religion. It's true that the Bible says "an eye for an eye" but that was the Old Testament. For any Christian it's presumably the case that the New Testament supersedes this and, since the latter adopts a pacifist position, it's hard to see how any Christian can use it to justify acts of violence.

[andas]

Id love to know where Brugel got his/her cr*p from, like most faith books (bible, etc, etc) things are often misinterpretated, it does not say anywhere in the koran to kill anyone, it's people like Brugel, who have got there facts wrong trying to divide the community, and grant theses scum  credit who bomb our country, and divide our great nation.

I am a proud british muslim, and I am extremely angered by these pigsh*t scum, who have bombed our country and killed innocent people, look at it from a muslim perspective we now have two target spot's 1 from theses terrorist 2nd from apprisal for being a muslim. I for one will be attending a march that is being organised by the MCB

We dont have to attend this march to make Islam pleasing, I am attending this march, to show defiance to these terrorist, and to show them they dont belong in our society and they will never ever be tolerated

[MargeB]

what do you believe, and why do you believe it?

[jimmer]

Brugel

"hard to see how any christian can use (the bible) to justify acts of violence"

but they do. Leaving aside George Bush who is a christian and yet manages to reconcile his beliefs with being commander in chief of the US forces. Or, a quote after 9/11 from a respected comentator in the US, Ann coulter: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them all to christianity."

Lets look at a Cristian fundamentalist group:

THe Lords Resistance Army

http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3513

Should christians feel responsible for them? Would you like them to open up a few youth clubs in the UK.

I brought up the IRA because of the ambiguity. They are christians yet they kill other christians for a political aim. Is it: loyalists killing republicans, or protestants killing catholics, or christians killing christians? And why has the violence in Northern Ireland subsided so much?

jim

[MargeB]

It's to do with being human. 

Human beings have a human nature, and this human nature is governed by various psychological rules, and only with awareness of them can we overcome them. One of the major social-psychological rules is the ingroup-outgroup (Tajfel) effect, massively studied in the last two decades. If you accentuate these differences (can you really do it more than with religion), then fur will naturally fly. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam NEVER say "See those other guys, they are ok, give them a hug." They ALL say "We are the chosen people." This in itself is enough to cause warfare.

End religion.

[MargeB]

interesting  

[nedflanders]

As Andas has pointed out there is to be an interfaith march to condemn this act of terrorism http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4677633.stm

[Brugel]

In reply to Andas, I think you have misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I am not saying that it is a fact that the Koran advocates killing non-Muslims and I'm certainly not trying to divide the country or any community.

I was attempting to show that there is prima facie evidence that the Koran supports such violence. This evidence comes in the form of the extracts I gave above (and there are plenty others). For example, if "slay the idolaters" doesn't mean "kill non-believers" then what does it mean?

Now I'm not denying that this evidence can be explained away- I've already made it clear that I'm not an expert on the Koran. And I am also prepared to accept that Islam is a peaceful religion if its adherents insist on this. But the point I am making is that, since the Koran appears at first sight to support violence then this would explain why some Muslims seem to use it as justification for acts of terrorism.

But, again, it's important to emphasise what I am not saying. I am not saying that it is a fact that the Koran supports terrorism. I am not saying that terrorists are right in using the Koran to justify their violence. And I am not saying that I support such violence myself. 

[Brugel]

In reply to Jim. You seem to think that we disagree here but I don't think this is so. I still maintain that it's hard to see how a Christian can use the Bible to justify violence- Jesus was quite explicit in his opposition to this. But, at the same time, I am perfectly aware that many Christians do carry out appalling acts.

To go back to Waldo's example of Harold Shipman. Everything in his medical training emphasised that he had a duty to save life. If he then decided to kill people he did so in contravention of what he had been taught. The same, I think, is true of Christians who kill.

Whether or not other Christians should publicly denounce such killings isn't clear. If they were a minority in a country where the killings were carried out against the non-Christian majority it would probably be advisable, at least from the point of view of community harmony.

[jimmer]

Brugel

I do not agree with any of your points ergo we disagree. Although your semantics are a little evasive, you seem to be saying that its a fact the Koran supports violence (and even murder) whereas the bible does not. I believe that fundamentalists make things up to justify their criminal activities which are for personal and/or political gain; be them christian, muslim,  atheist or martian. I do not care what the bible or the Koran say but i know that they are both widely open to interpretation and i strongly suspect they both contain all sorts of crap that could get some nutter going. 

It is my belief that muslims have no need or cause to apologise or distance themselves from the criminal lunatics that carried out the london atrocities. I also trust and respect the many Muslim leaders who have condemned the attacks and say there is nothing in the Koran to justify murder. Now is the time for some solidarity.

Having said that, I'm not trying to have a go at you personally. Your entitled to your views and at least you have thought out your arguments which is far better than many on this site.

jim

[MargeB]

If the Qu'aran or the Bible were all nice peaceful stories, they would still lead to bloodshed, because they create very strong lines between groups. Take the Bible (New Testament): You start with 2 groups: Christians and Non-Christians. The Non-Christians are beating the carp out of the Christians and so the Christians team together, and the NT expresses this very widely. At no point does the book say 'Christian, fight Christian'. Yet all you need is a separation into inter-Christian groups (Catholic v Protestant) to have bloodshed between them!!!

If you doubt the reality of the imporance of the group on group effect, think back to blood spilled in the world according to Our Group-Their group principles:

black v white

Rich v poor

Communist v Capitalist

This religion v That religion

This football team v that football team

This country v that country

It's PART OF THE HUMAN CONDITION. Something goes off in the human head which says "Me this group!" "Him that group?" "Something scarce/in dispute?" "KILL HIM". IT'S THE WAY IT IS. You can't overcome it by policing it, or praying, or 'suggesting we all respect each other.' You overcome it by minimizing between group differences and maximizing overall similarity, and finding common goals to struggle for (this has been scientifically demonstrated extremely well).

And what do we do? We split ourselves up according to the lie that is all organized religion, and we blow up members of the other group.

[mash]

I think as many people as possible of every background should march against acts like these. Collective action in numbers would have a better effect and demonstrate we are a working multicultural society. Let's not forget that every country around the world will be home to naive people who are ideal candidates for extremist fools who indoctrinate these people to act on the basis of pure rubbish they preach to them (which resembles no form of religious teaching). These terrorists are ignorant fools who become murderers, nothing, more nothing less.

[MargeB]

I see what you're getting at mash. However, I know hundreds of ignorant fools who don't harm a fly. These bombers, by all accounts, were regular happy guys, with regular lives. Then they get brainwashed by the extreme end that is the natural consequence of the Nutterdom that is Religion. I have a good friend, a clever, well-informed person with a normal, stable, balanced life. She was explaining to me the other day how the world was going to end after Pope Benedict.

Religion.Nothing else has the power to brainwash in the same way. The basic 'code' that evolution leaves in the human brain is survive. 'Survive forever' , the mantra of all organised religion, is a promise that hijacks this code and makes anything possible.

[umayah]

Did the pope and all catholic preists go on a march after the IRA bombings?  Why wern't people outraged with the Catholic community?  This is a perfect time for all those bigoted racist people or just plain ignorant people to have their say. 

Zen could you clarify what were the aims of the terrorists? 

[umayah]

Brugel ,

just to clarify a few things about the Quran.  Firstly as a muslim I know that the quranic sqript can not be taken literally as read.  With all the verses there is a context in which they have been revealed to the prophet, so they may have been revealed after a particular incident that happened in the prophet Mohammeds time.  This is why when people such as your self quote single verses without any previous knowledge of the context surrounding the verse, there can be misunderstanding about the meaning of the verse.  This unfortunately is something which many anti-muslims seem to do alot of.

The problem with alot of muslims with a simple understanding of Islam is that they will also take the quaranic script literally and therefore acts such as those that happened in London and elsewhere will occur. 

One example of this is a saying by the prophet that we should teach our children to ride horses ( I can't remember the exact saying).  Ofcourse in the prophets time horses and camels were the main method of transportation.  A very useful thing for someone to have as a skill.  This by the way also included females, not just males for those who believe that Islam favoured males only.  Nowadays that saying should be understood by the muslim to mean teaching ones children to drive.  This empowers your child and means that they can do things for themselves without relying on others.  Certain muslims, however still take the meaning as literal and will teach their children how to ride horses, nothing wrong with that, but this is the extent of their simplicity of thinking.

Muslims, myself included do not feel that they have a duty to attack non muslims, infact if I remember rightly in Palestine pre-crusades, muslims, jews and christians lived together in peace, until the european christians came and destroyed and killed everyone.

[umayah]

Oh anbd by the way if were going to take things literally the word Islam means peace.

[umayah]

Quote Brugel: ":...it must be said that there would seem to be quite a few instances in the Koran where hatred towards non-Muslims is promoted. So, for example, we have "take not the Jews or Christians as friends" (5:51); "slay the idolaters wherever you find them" (9:5); "fight those who believe not in Allah" (9:29); "may Allah destroy them (Christians and Jews)" (9:30)."

I think the operative words here in Brugel's statement are it would seem. These quotes you have provided are not even complete verses but parts of verses so they cannot be used as proof that the Qur'an advocates any kind of terrorism. The pieces you quote are part of a much greater section which lays down the rules and regulations for going to war. Yes, there are actually rules even for war in Islam.

If we are going to start quoting individual verses of the Qur'an without knowledge what do you think of the following verse as it stands:?

107:4 "So, woe to those who pray."

Doesn't make much sense on it's own without the qualifying statement that follows in the next verse 107:5.

 

 
 

[werter5075]

umayah islam means summ ission why are you telling lies