So Now We Know

[bazwillrun]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/05/09/uk-europe-britain-cameron-idUKBRE9480DG20130509

why he doesnt really want us to have a referendum.

not that it was a secret but it also explains why Ken Clarke, so pro eussr its not a joke was made minister without portfolio.

Cameron will be gone before the next GE...dead cert

[ichkeria]

Cameron wants Britain to stay in the EU? We know that already, don't we?

An opinion poll yesterday showed that were there to be a referendum on EU membership tomorrw, 46% would vote to leave, 35% to stay but 21% "don't knows". Less than half favoured leaving on future renegotiated terms, which should give the Prime Minister some cause for optimism.

As many as 14% favoured further or total integration, which I was quite surprised at.

[ToraToraTora]

Sadly all the main party leaders agree on keeping us under the EUSSR jack boot. Ironic really because they normally have a ravenous appetite for popularity. This issue seems to an all consuming obsession. No doubt well have a referendum at some point but they'll fudge the question to get the "correct" answer.

[Gromit]

If we get another referendum, I imagine there will be a big campaign by Industry, CBE, exporters, Unions etc in support of staying in. Labour, LibDem and half of the Conservatives will support staying in as well.

There will be a lot done to educate floating voters as regards how many jobs and services are dependent on the EU and the benefits we do get from membership.

The economic case for staying in is sound, where as the cost of us leaving have not been properly costed or scrutinised. When they are, I imagine leaving will not seem as attractive.

[Gromit]

Cameron has always said he will campaign for us to stay in the EU. That is not news.

[jim360]

We already knew Cmaeron wanted to stay in the EU. I would seriously like it if he honoured his pledge for a referendum, and perhaps too if the other parties promised the same. You don't have to be anti-EU to be pro-referendum.

The people want a say, and have done for years. As worried as I am about a "no" vote I doubt we'd have that really, and this would be a chance to sort the EU issue out for a good long time.

[mikey4444]

The difficulty with the issue of staying or leaving the EEC is that very few people know enough real facts in order to make a decision one way of the other. Anyway, it is easily conflated with extraneous matter, like immigration and "bloody foreigners" If you ask people why they want to leave the EEC, they start mumbling incoherently.

Trying to have a serious informed debate on the EEC in Britain today is like trying to nail custard to the wall. Before long, the discussion becomes awash with tired drivel about warm beer, cricket and the Queen Mother.

In Wales where I live, we have seen money coming in for infrastructure projects that Westminster have shown an unwillingness to spend, especially during the 80's and most of the 90's. We have definitely gained from our membership. But wealthier parts of the UK might not have had the same experience.

I am a democrat and I believe that debate is healthy but it has to be informed debate, not a ilinformed slanging match.

[ichkeria]

The trouble with the pro-anti EU debate for those of us who are "pro" is that whereas many of the reasons touted by people for coming out are eye-catching and dramatic (but often not very sound or relevant), the reasons for staying in are very strong but rather dull,

[DTCwordfan]

Good on him - about time somone made an affirmative statement about staying in - and working from within to correct some of the institutional wrongs of the EEC.

How would we expect as the Mighty Little Britain to survive outside the EEC - we would be back in IMF management within 3 years of exiting - remember the 70s when Britain was all but bankrupt and the 3 day week, though I guess there are those on here who would love to see those dark days to return again.

[mikey4444]

I'll settle for strong and dull then ! I'm sure we have enough eloquent and informed politicians, and here on AB of course, to liven the debate up a bit and stop those at the back of the class from falling asleep !

[Gromit]

// The people want a say, and have done for years. //

Actually, most people are not concerned by Europe, and it is not one of the main issues when it comes to their voting intentions.

The latest MORI poll on issues influencing voters reads:

Economy 52%
Crime 15%
Education 13%
Europe 7%

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2905/Issues-Index-2012-onwards.aspx?view=wide#2012

[modeller]

//So Now We Know//

What's new ? I read your link thinking it was some revelation but it's no different from what we have been discussing in depth especially during and since the local elections.

[bazwillrun]

"are eye-catching and dramatic (but often not very sound or relevant),"

so would you class a corrupt organisation trying to take over, subjugate and run your country from top to bottom turning it into no more than a province of the greater superstate/empire whatever you want to call it, dishing out its laws and taxes etc etc not relevant ?

[jim360]

No, I'd just disagree with that claim.

[DTCwordfan]

"The truth is, going against the internal stream of ignorance is way more rebellious, than trying to start some sort of cultural revolution from within.”

Noah Levine, Dharma Punx: A Memoir

[ichkeria]

"so would you class a corrupt organisation trying to take over, subjugate and run your country from top to bottom turning it into no more than a province of the greater superstate/empire whatever you want to call it, dishing out its laws and taxes etc etc not relevant ? "

No, I'd class that as one of the classic eye-catching, dramatic but, in my opinion, wrong ones :-)

[modeller]

mikey //We have definitely gained from our membership.//
We have paid out £143 billion more than we have received since we joined and we currently pay £9 billion more than we receive every year.
I assume Welsh tax payers pay their share of those amounts . I think you will find the investment in Wales has mostly came from Westminster rather than Brussels.
However this site makes interesting reading:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

[jake-the-peg]

The problem is that the skeptics try to polarise the debate onto financial grounds as if that were the only basis for making the decision.

Compare that with the Scottish referendum on independance - you dont see Conservatives saying Scotland costs more than in contributes therefore we should campaign for a yes vote and we should be rid of hem

Nobody is arguing for the North of England to be cut off as a separate country because they take more money than they contribute


There's more than just finances here but that's where the skeptics want to keep the debate

[ToraToraTora]

yes DT I remember the 70's fortunately that was cured in the 80s.