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Divide Or Unite
On the news they are showing how Northern Ireland is uniting by having mixed primary schools with Catholics and Protestants. They showed such a school enjoying a visit from Obama .
Why is it that the way ahead is to be achieved in NI by educating the children together whilst at the same we are doing the opposite and splitting our society apart by building hundreds of faith schools. ? In my local area alone we have eight faith schools and more are planned , two opening in the Autumn. What could be more divisive ?
Why is it that the way ahead is to be achieved in NI by educating the children together whilst at the same we are doing the opposite and splitting our society apart by building hundreds of faith schools. ? In my local area alone we have eight faith schools and more are planned , two opening in the Autumn. What could be more divisive ?
Answers
Free schools and faith schools are ideal for parents who wish their children to be brought up in a particular faith. But that should not be funded by the tax payer. The tax payer should provide schools that give pupils an education. If parents want the additional mumbo jumbo they should pay for it themselves.
19:49 Tue 18th Jun 2013
Northern Ireland has a great deal to go before it even starts to come anywhere near the rest of Britain for inclusive education. "Mixed" schools, ie non-sectarian, make up a tiny percentage of the total in Northern Ireland. Its marvellous that they are making some inroads in the right direction, but there is still a huge way to go before this reform starts to make a difference in the population as a whole. Good start though.
I'm not sure where you live but here in Wales we really don't have an issue with faith schools. In Britain as a whole I suspect that they represent a tiny minority.
I agree with the divisive point but I am much more concerned about another, far more important aspect of this trend. A lot of these new faith schools are Evangelical church-based and they want to teach the literal truth of the Bible alongside the normal methods. I am concerned that children will be filled with drivel about the earth being only 6000 years old, early man chased dinosaurs for his lunch, fossils were "planted" in sedimentary rocks by Jesus, or perhaps the Devil, to confuse us all, including David Attenborough, etc.
These things are for a Sunday morning, not Monday to Friday in term-time.
I'm not sure where you live but here in Wales we really don't have an issue with faith schools. In Britain as a whole I suspect that they represent a tiny minority.
I agree with the divisive point but I am much more concerned about another, far more important aspect of this trend. A lot of these new faith schools are Evangelical church-based and they want to teach the literal truth of the Bible alongside the normal methods. I am concerned that children will be filled with drivel about the earth being only 6000 years old, early man chased dinosaurs for his lunch, fossils were "planted" in sedimentary rocks by Jesus, or perhaps the Devil, to confuse us all, including David Attenborough, etc.
These things are for a Sunday morning, not Monday to Friday in term-time.
Free schools and faith schools are ideal for parents who wish their children to be brought up in a particular faith. But that should not be funded by the tax payer. The tax payer should provide schools that give pupils an education. If parents want the additional mumbo jumbo they should pay for it themselves.
My, relatively recent, experience of faith schools (both daughters attended them) is that they do accept pupils from other faiths, and RE, compulsory to GCSE level, is more about morality than the specific faith.
That is a change from my school days in the 50's and 60's when RE was primarily about the particular faith of the school, but was not a compulsory GCE subject. that bias towards the faith of the school in RE teaching was changing towards the end of the 60's when I left school.
With regard to NI, I had a gratuity aunt who was born there and she used to tell me a bit about what it was like there in the 30's - walk on the wrong side of the street and you risked getting beaten up sort of thing. That was in one of the cities (Belfast I think).
The NI people I knew when I was at college were making similar claims in the early 70's, but never had any problem mixing with people of all faiths over here.
The only NI born person I knew over here who was really anti-Catholic was a Protestant. He wouldn't even speak to someone he knew was a Catholic, but still married a woman who was brought up as a Catholic, though lapsed. When they moved to NI some years ago, they went to move to area where there wasn't a sectarian divide, or where such bias was minimal.
So, though I don't know NI, I suspect that the sectarian divide is strongest in major towns and cities. That would be down to the "them" and "us" attitudes that parents teach their children, having been taught it themselves from experience and their own parents.
Giving children the chance to see that children from the "other" side are just like them really when it come to the important things is a good idea. It will take time, but given enough of it there is at least the possibility that both sides will eventually be able to get on without all the divisiveness which has been seen in the past.
Over here I don't think faith schools are divisive because, outside of school, children mix without worrying about what faith their friends are. They come across people of different faiths daily, they are taught about other faiths in RE, and most of them don't give a hoot about what faith their friends are or about the faith of their parents.
That is a change from my school days in the 50's and 60's when RE was primarily about the particular faith of the school, but was not a compulsory GCE subject. that bias towards the faith of the school in RE teaching was changing towards the end of the 60's when I left school.
With regard to NI, I had a gratuity aunt who was born there and she used to tell me a bit about what it was like there in the 30's - walk on the wrong side of the street and you risked getting beaten up sort of thing. That was in one of the cities (Belfast I think).
The NI people I knew when I was at college were making similar claims in the early 70's, but never had any problem mixing with people of all faiths over here.
The only NI born person I knew over here who was really anti-Catholic was a Protestant. He wouldn't even speak to someone he knew was a Catholic, but still married a woman who was brought up as a Catholic, though lapsed. When they moved to NI some years ago, they went to move to area where there wasn't a sectarian divide, or where such bias was minimal.
So, though I don't know NI, I suspect that the sectarian divide is strongest in major towns and cities. That would be down to the "them" and "us" attitudes that parents teach their children, having been taught it themselves from experience and their own parents.
Giving children the chance to see that children from the "other" side are just like them really when it come to the important things is a good idea. It will take time, but given enough of it there is at least the possibility that both sides will eventually be able to get on without all the divisiveness which has been seen in the past.
Over here I don't think faith schools are divisive because, outside of school, children mix without worrying about what faith their friends are. They come across people of different faiths daily, they are taught about other faiths in RE, and most of them don't give a hoot about what faith their friends are or about the faith of their parents.
No idea Em. I can only speak from my own experience, and I know my kids have friends who are Catholic, Protestant (of various flavours), Muslim, atheist and agnostic. Their friends are always welcome here.
We, as parents, have two friends who are probably better versed in Catholic theology than most priests, and one of them is probably as well versed in other faiths as Naomi. Both will answer questions relating to faith if asked, but neither make an issue of it and religion rarely crops up as a topic when we see them.
We, as parents, have two friends who are probably better versed in Catholic theology than most priests, and one of them is probably as well versed in other faiths as Naomi. Both will answer questions relating to faith if asked, but neither make an issue of it and religion rarely crops up as a topic when we see them.
Well, it didn't insist on it and hardly formed a core part of our education. Most of it was spent learning Maths, English, Science (and not a single mention of Creation), Art, History, Geography, PE, Computing, Design and Tech., Music, Drama, French... there wasn't any time for teaching the scriptures really. The Christian element was the voluntary Chapel service, the not-so-voluntary Communion, and to the best of my knowledge that's about it. Even in RS much of the focus was on moral questions, philosophy in general, and what might be called the culture of religion.
Maybe I do have a selective memory but then again you have no memory at all of this particular school so while you are surely right about faith schools in general I don't think you're right about this one in particular.
Maybe I do have a selective memory but then again you have no memory at all of this particular school so while you are surely right about faith schools in general I don't think you're right about this one in particular.
I don't think it is fair to compare faith schools in Britain with the situation in N Ireland where society has been divided along political-religious lines in a way that simply does not exist in Britain.
The problem with schooling in N Ireland only arises partly out of what children may historically have been taught in these schools, and then only largely the political rather than the religious aspect. You may have an issue with childen being taought "religion" but I don't necessarily see that as divisive exactly.
The problem with schooling in N Ireland only arises partly out of what children may historically have been taught in these schools, and then only largely the political rather than the religious aspect. You may have an issue with childen being taought "religion" but I don't necessarily see that as divisive exactly.
The situation in NI is VERY different to the rest of the UK. Some contributors here this morning have said that they have cordial relations with people of other faiths. Well, that is fine and dandy but the reality is that most people in England and Wales have no idea what religion their work colleagues or neighbours are. Its just not relevant.
In NI however, its obvious from the start. Your surname and Christian names would give you away immediately, as well as your address. Up until recently, your profession would also provide a clue, and still does...there are very few Catholics Policemen for instance. NI really isn't like the rest of the UK. I know this because my father was from a village outside Belfast, and our surname and Christian names leave no doubt as to our affiliation.
Things are changing but only very slowly. Don't let the fact that they are not bombing each other to smithereens any more, like they did in the 1970's fool you. Lift the corner just a little bit and there is still the same old fear and bigotry that there ever was. It can flair up at any time and it probably will in August, during the marching season.
In NI however, its obvious from the start. Your surname and Christian names would give you away immediately, as well as your address. Up until recently, your profession would also provide a clue, and still does...there are very few Catholics Policemen for instance. NI really isn't like the rest of the UK. I know this because my father was from a village outside Belfast, and our surname and Christian names leave no doubt as to our affiliation.
Things are changing but only very slowly. Don't let the fact that they are not bombing each other to smithereens any more, like they did in the 1970's fool you. Lift the corner just a little bit and there is still the same old fear and bigotry that there ever was. It can flair up at any time and it probably will in August, during the marching season.
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