Shisha Bars

[chrisgel]

Are flourishing in Manchester and presumably in other areas of the country.
Councils do not have the power to close them and can only fine them, which is not a deterrent because they are so profitable.
It seems that when the "Smoking Ban" was being drawn up no-one had the foresight to see that, with the immigration of people from the Middle East and Asia, this might cause problems.
What should be done?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/council-pleads-government-help-tackle-5102085

[mushroom25]

and they're a problem - how? by it's very definition a shisha bar will be full of smoke; nobody's forcing whiney non-smokers to go in, nor is a non-smoker likely to apply for a job in one.

[ichkeria]

It seems to me that that as mushroom suggests bars which are expressly for the purpose of smoking are a different kettle of fish (so to speak) from establishments where smoking is incidental.
But also, what are the dangers of passive smoke-inhalation from hookahs? Presumably the point of the tobacco ban was to prevent that.

[sp1814]

But is it tobacco?

What's actually in them?

I've been to a couple of bars, but all the shishas are outside, so they don't break the ban.

[chrisgel]

//and they're a problem - how?//
I didn't say they were a problem. The council did, as per the article.

[chrisgel]

sp - Flavoured tobacco.

[sp1814]

chrisgel

According to the BBC:

"Shisha is a water-pipe, popular in many Arab countries, in which fruit-scented tobacco is burnt using coal, passed through an ornate water vessel and inhaled through a hose"

So if an establishment is allowing the smoking of these pipes in an enclosed area, they should be prosecuted same as everyone else.

[mushroom25]

I gather from the article that they are being prosecuted. But because there's no licence to revoke and the fines are - compared to the establishments' profits - small, shisha bar owners just see prosecution as an occupational hazard.

[joggerjayne]

We quite often go in the sheesha bar on West Street, opposite Waterstones. You go out on to the roof terrace, which has a little complex of wooden qazebo type things, with patio heaters.

You make yourself comfy on the big cushions, and the little man brings you a hookah and a bottle of wine. Very jolly.

We need more sheesha bars.

[LazyGun]

It is tobacco, usually flavoured. I have tried a few shisha pipes, when out in UAE and Jordan on business several years ago when I was still a smoker, and found them quite pleasant.

Not sure I quite understand why the council feels so powerless though.As the law currently stands, such establishments can be fined up to £2,500 for each charge - surely they could just charge them for every day they are doing business if they really wanted to - how could such a business carry on trading then?

I do not see the need for additional laws....

[Canary42]

The only one I know of (in Twickenham) does it in the back garden, so no laws broken.

[joggerjayne]

Councils need to find something more useful to do, rather than pestering bars providing simple enjoyment and a relaxing place to go and chill out. The bar we go to is open until the small hours, so you can go there on he way home from the pub, club or casino.

[McMouse]

//What should be done? //

100 lashes on first conviction. Beheading or stoning for repeat offence.

[FredPuli43]

Don't see the problem. There's a Turkish restaurant that offers this service in Newmarket, the smoking being outside the building, at tables within the curtilage thereof. If the local council want to prosecute this, on the basis that the smoking is on the premises, as defined by law, they can. It is open for all to see. But I think they don't, because they see it as legal.

[joggerjayne]

Message for anally retentive a Joy-sticks at the Council who are whingeing about sheesha bars.

1. You are anally retentive.

2. And Joy-sticks.

3. Go and talk to people about their overgrown hedges. That sounds more like your scene.

4. Did I mention you are Joy-sticks?

[joggerjayne]

Good job there are no ABers called D i c k !

[chrisgel]

From previous reports in the MEN I know that the Shisha bars that have been fined are the ones that are indoors. Given Manchesters glorious climate I would think that the majority of them are indoors although I don't have the figures to substantiate this.

[jno]

I've been wondering the same as ichkeria: is there a problem with second-hand smoking here? Some people seem to say yes and others no. I don't see why smokers who want to kill themselves (with fruit flavours if desired) whouldn't have sequestered establishments in which to do so; but if they're going to be sitting outside on the street I'd rather like to know their smoke isn't killing me too as I pass by.

Anyone know the truth about this?

[jake-the-peg]

The problem is that the smoking ban is an employment legislation issue.

It was brought in for the protection of staff. It was not deemed acceptable to tell people that by accepting a job in such an establishment you accepted the risk of cancer any more than telling staff in a chemical plant that.

The excuse that people are from a different culture is no more acceptable than saying cigarette/pipe/cigar smoking is a cultural part of western life.

I don't buy their 'we are helpless' line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban_in_England#Policing_of_the_ban

is an example of an 'objector' who had his premises licence revoked all within existing legislation.

Sounds to me as if Manchester Council is playing politics over something

[mushroom25]

Jake, in that instance there was a licence covering the sale of alcohol that could be revoked. In the case of a cafe, it it's not serving alcohol, if it's not serving hot food after 11pm, if there are no tables outside the premises, or if a change of use was not required by the planning authority, then there will be no licence.

[New Judge]

I agree with jake that Manchester City Council is whinging to the government about a problem which it has adequate powers to address itself.

It is clear that the usual method of dealing with persistent offenders such as pubs cannot be employed here because no licences are involved. However, whilst the Health Act 2006 (which covers the smoke free rules for indoor public places) makes provision for controllers of premises to be issued with (fairly minimal) fixed penalties they also make provision for them to be fined up to £2,500 if the matter is taken to court.

All the council officers have to do is to refuse to offer a fixed penalty (because of persistent offending, in the same way as a regular or excessive speeding motorist would be denied a FP) and instead issue a summons. Two or three visits to court followed by hefty fines and costs should do the trick. They could also issue fixed penalties to each and every one of the customers found smoking on the premises and they may not be too keen to repeat their offence if it costs them fifty quid a throw.

Councillor Pat Karney’s assertion that “…shisha bars had been missed out from the 2007 smoking ban effectively ‘by accident’, because little was known about them at the time.” is ridiculous. No types of premises were excluded or included as the regulations apply to all indoor public places whether they need a licence or not.