3Rd Soldier Dies After Incident On Brecons

[Sharingan]

A third solider has sadly died in hospital after being rescued along with his two companions who died on the day.
Given that it has already been established by the MOD that there was no fall involved, no live ammunition etc, why are the MOD describing it as ' died of his injuries' since the soldiers concerned were not injured just the victims of carelessly planned manouevres. Are the MOD trying to put a spin on their lack of common sense implying already, ahead of the inquest, that these were 'injuries' when in fact it was negligence?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23511938

[friedgreentomato]

I don't think its lack of common sense - these guys were applying for the elite of the elite, they have to be able to show that they can perform in any climate.

Its a tragedy that was avoidable but people are making too much out of it - growing up in the forces I remember my dad and my brothers going out on exercises in weather that you would'nt put a dog out in!

[emmie]

did they have adequate water, as i recall one walker saying he was approached by the one soldiers asking if they had any spare water for his comrade.

[Sharingan]

There are two distinct camps in this idea of soldiers dying during exercises, one like me who finds it unacceptable and one which thinks it's justified as we need elite forces.To some degree I can respect both opinions as far as that goes.
I was more interested in the spin angle of this actually, that already the MOD are using words like ' injuries' implying an accident of some sort when it's established that no-one fell, got shot etc etc etc. It just made me quite angry that already they appear just be covering their backsides and saying ' hey ho just a sad accident, we're not taking the fall for this under any circumstances'.
THAT is not good enough, if mistakes are made then they neede to be admitted to and learned from so they don't happen again, and I'm glad the Powys coroner seems to be on their case about it.

[Sharingan]

Yes Em one witness said he found two soldiers crying and pleading for water.

[friedgreentomato]

OK I am sorry but as such they did die of injuries sustained during their exercise - be it dehydration or other injuries.

It is up to soldiers to ensure they carry enough water - they can not apply to elite battalions and then start gurning as they have decided not to carry enough water!

[emmie]

were they given adequate water, and as already known it was one of the hottest days of the year, and whether they to suffer those temperatures in Afghanistan or other, they should have at least adequate supplies of water.

[jake-the-peg]

Sorry FGT - that's no excuse

That sort of logic could be used to justify any amount of negligence or stupidity.

When soldiers are on active service they are exposed to an enhanced risk the whole point of *any* training military or otherwise is to expose people to conditions as close as possible to those they are expecting *With a reduced and acceptable risk*

lets not also forget - these were not full time professional soldiers

These were territorials

[LazyGun]

I think the MoD are technically correct in their description - death from acute heat exhaustion/heat stroke would be classed as an injury - and that injury was sustained during a training exercise.

Cannot really comment on the circumstances, since by its very nature, the job they were training for requires the candidate to be able to perform in extreme environments.

I do think that managerial oversight sounds lacking though...

[emmie]

isn't gurning when you are pulling a face, doubt very much that is what they were doing. Let us hope that the families of the soldiers get some answers. Elite is one thing, killing your soldiers here is quite another.

[Sharingan]

No FGT but apparently they can die instead, which is not really ideal is it? Whilst it does have a sort of Darwinist effectiveness of not enabling unsuitable people to get into the elite forces, it also ends up killing people. You would think that there would be more safeguards in place to stop something so basic and avoidable especially since these people were attempting to get into the SAS. the SAS should KNOW how much water is needed. I do and I'm nothing very special at all, so why do trained professionals allow this to happen?

[emmie]

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has announced a full inquiry into what happened. let us hope they do. And whilst they are about it, keep tabs on those who have left the army, or at least forward their notes to their GP's, seeing how many have died at their own hands since leaving the services.

[jackthehat]

One of the important tasks on such exercises is the locating of water and food........

[missnemesis]

@FGT

/// they can not apply to elite battalions and then start gurning as they have decided not to carry enough water! ///

I think that ^^^ has to be one of THE most callous and heartless things I have ever read on this site. These men were not 'gurning' as you put it they were bl00dy well DYING!!!

Here's hoping nobody ever discovers you in your death throws and leaves you because you were merely gurning.

Disgusting!!!

[pixie373]

"died of his injuries" does mean that there was a cause that could be looked into. It would be worse if "natural causes" had been decided
There is definitely some negligence there, as more than one has died. Even if you take horses abroad for competitions, they are given a minimum of two weeks to acclimatise before anything physical is expected from them. That not only keeps them safer, but allows them to perform at their best. Humans are no different, in that respect.

[friedgreentomato]

Well missnemisis you are of course entitled to your opinion!

But as pointed out one of the parts of these exercise is to source food and water!

gurning/greeting/crying

[douglas9401]

Allow me: girning and throes.

[friedgreentomato]

cheers douglas - glad someone knew what I was on about!

[meglet]

My husband is a TA soldier and has been on exercise on Pen-y-fan many a time. His opinion on the outcome of the enquiry will be that there will blame assigned to both the soldiers and the directing staff. There will have been checkpoints throughout then course where the soldiers could obtain water BUT there probably wasn't any extra time given to complete the exercise. A 60k tab would need to be done in x hours and, given the heat they may have had an extra half an hour, but perhaps not. The soldiers would have been pushing themselves to the limit to complete in time, but they are not left out there on their own. He has had friends pulled off similar course when the directing sergeant at the checkpoint has clearly seen they are suffering. One other thing he mentioned is that the terrain is very different to Afghan. Out there they will carry 4 litres of water on patrol, but it is flat. The soldiers would have needed more water for the hills, perhaps they didn't get enough at the checkpoints to compensate.

[youngmafbog]

Kosmos, I think you are mistaking footsoldiers/infantry for SAS/SBS.

SAS/SBS will use any element of surprise, which could be marching on your enemy in extreme conditions where they think you could not possible do it thus giving you the element of surprise.

Plenty on here about killing potential soldiers but how many more would be dead in the field with really aggressive training?

It is sad, but it is not a commute to an Islington coffee shop.