Could Hiring Too Many Foreign Doctors 'puts Lives At Risk'?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2394034/Hiring-foreign-doctors-puts-lives-risk-Senior-surgeon-criticises-poor-language-skills-lack-training.html

Much has been said in defence of mass immigration in this country, when one criticises the problem of mass immigration, the usual cry that comes up is "how could our NHS survive without immigration?

Well here is the other side of the coin, whereas many immigrant doctors and nurses do sterling work, there are many who are obviously bringing the NHS down, perhaps the regular stories one hears of problem hospitals up and down the country, the influx of foreign medical staff could be one reason?

[FredPuli43]

So,LG, my Latvian could have been a Latvian doctor and have his English tested at all? Blimey : "When I say 'my appendix' , I don't care what your dictionary says. I don't mean something added to a body of work !"

[emmie]

i would say yes it does, having across any number of doctors and nurses who's command of English was poor, or with accents so hard to understand that one had to have others translating, ridiculous state of affairs. And if British doctors are going overseas that is a small fortune wasted in training them up, perhaps they should be made to sign a contract, that once fully trained they will do a set period of years in the NHS before being able to leave. I have never understood the idea you would spend a small fortune of training an individual whether it doctors, nurses, armed forces, for them to take those qualifications and begger off to somewhere the money, conditions are more suited to their tastes,

[China Doll]

Do we spend a small fortune training them? An SHO I was speaking to recently was telling me she had to retake an exam; she was paying to re-take this exam but turns out she also paid to take the original exam. So how much are medical students/SHO's forking out to become doctors? Because if it's a case of them forking out their own money to get the qualification in the first place then you can not impose anything on them to work in the UK for any number of years.

[LazyGun]

I do not think you can impose restrictions on Doctors training here going to work abroad should they so wish, especially now that students are having to pay for their University education, unlike the situation when I went to University.

No idea how many of those studying medicine in the UK actually go abroad to work - would be quite interesting to see the figures. I had understood the shortage of "native" Uk medical students to be down to insufficient numbers of people studying medicine to cope with demand, rather than the shortage being caused by medical students electing to work outside of the UK.

I do agree regarding the language - it should represent an integral part of the job requirements for anyone working in a role within the public sector, but especially within the health service that brings them into contact with patients and the public.

[emmie]

it does, and this isn't the only link i found the details on, there was a better NHS one, but gives the same sort of data

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9274753/Up-to-1000-new-doctors-could-face-unemployment.html

[Nibble]

This argument has been going on for all the years I've worked in the NHS - the English Language problem then was the test was applied to non-NHS medics, but anyone from the EU could just be appointed. I too find many docs (hospital and GP) difficult to understand, and some have difficulty expressing themselves to the patient.

[boxtops]

^sorry, that was me not nibble.

[EDDIE51]

90% of immigrants come to this country to see a doctor who speaks their own language ;-)

[LazyGun]

@emmie Thanks for the link. I do wish the Telegraph had identified what comprises this supposed cost to the Government of university education at £250,000 or so.

And the shortage of graduates coming through the system is more down to the potential bottleneck of getting post-grad foundation training more than anything else.

[emmie]

i have downloaded, though i didn't want to, a document on how it's all broken down... copying and pasting the data went all over the place, let me see if i can find a way to put it on here. It does cost a small fortune to train doctors, and the cost to them for their training...

[emmie]

have no idea if this will work, but it breaks down how the figures are comprised,

bma.org.uk/-/media/Files/.../pressbriefing_cost_of_training_doctors.docx‎

[emmie]

the only way might be to look up that link?

[EDDIE51]

In the news yesterday or the day before, there is a huge shortage of teachers qualified in science and maths , most pupils are being taught these subjects by teachers who are not even qualified in the subjects themselves. This means that the future for British trained doctors is even worse and the % of foreign medics will get higher.

[LazyGun]

@ Emmie Thanks for the links, I will take a look at the BMA article you linked to.

One of the comments on that Telegraph article was quite revealing, I thought. It is from someone who sounds like they are in or have recently gone through the system.

"juniordoc1
06/08/2012 07:10 AM
This article is just scaremongering. This year only ~150 people ended up on the reserve list and I think all have/will get a job come August. I can see no reason why there would be 1000 extra grads next year relative to jobs available - there will be no reduction in FY1 posts next year, no new medical schools opened in 2007/2008 (the years next year's grads will have started) and there was no significant expansion of places at existing medical schools over that time. And since the government capped visa issuing I can't see there being a rise in non-EU applicants either.

So basically, this journalist was told to write about something and has made a piece of sensationalist rubbish out of nothing."

[LazyGun]

@ Emmie I took a look at that BMA press briefing on training med students. It covers the costs after university, and breaks down the estimated costs of training someone through their Foundation Year training through to being a consultant.

[emmie]

not according to other source material i was looking at. It doesn't stop the fact that you train someone up, quarter/half a million whatever and after their training is complete, or maybe they do a stint in NHS begger off to foreign climes because the pay/conditions are better.

[Sqad]

emmie.......apart from confiscating their passports, how could you stop British trained doctors from emigrating?

[emmie]

i did say it was costly, perhaps they don't all go on to be consultants, but the overall costs of training are high. If we are importing ever more foreign doctors, ones who's skills are not upto standard, then you have to ask yourself why? is it simply to fill a shortfall, then they are putting peoples lives at risk, if the doctor/nurse skills are low and their language skills are poor. I have had instances of this too often to know that it happens, and that one nurse tending my mother could not be understood by anyone including the doctor.

[emmie]

sqad, you can't, but if its cost a small fortune to train them up, they should sign a contract to work for at least 5 years in NHS. I can't see that spending all that money for the doctor to decide his pay isn't enough and seek employment elsewhere, so the country he/she goes to gets all the benefits, whilst we are left with the bill and the possible second rate physician in their place.

[LazyGun]

@ Emmie - I may be mistaken. But that quarter of a million pound cost that the Telegraph refers to as the investment by the state in the training of a doctor represents post-university training of a medical student, from their Foundation Year and assuming they ascend to the giddy heights of a Consultant. Not all will do that.So this is effectively the cost of on the job vocational training. And there is no way to effectively ban people from travelling abroad, should they so wish.

And for those medical students unable to find a foundation placement ( and there really are not that many), lots of opportunities opening up over in the US :)

The breakdown of figures has nothing to do with the cost of their university years, as best as I can tell.