shooting to kill

[justineo]

The police have now admitted that the man shot dead yesterday was not involved with the attempted bombings but he didn't stop when ordered to and ran off carrying a bag, which potentially could have been a bomb. What can the police/special forces do in such a situation?  Was it the man's fault for not stopping?  What do you think?

[Peter Pedant]

Chair leg - that's what I think

(I am referring to the fella who was shot because he was carrying a repaired chair leg which the police thought was a rifle)

[bernardo]

Yes it was his fault - and it was his fault for being evasive, running to the tube, having a big coat in hot weather, and not putting his hands up when they cornered him.  They would only have shot him if he had looked as though he might be trying to detonate a bomb.

[bernardo]

P.S. The Harry Stanley case was completely different, because HS was not behaving suspiciously or turn round or behave in a threatening way or look as though he was about to shoot

[ludwig]

I think if an armed policeman shouts 'stop or I'll shoot', and you don't stop, then you get shot. Obviously I don't know the full story behind it - why he was a suspect, whether he could even speak english etc, but that's really all there is to it. Sad that an innocent person died, but if he'd run on to the train and detonated a bomb we'd all be asking why the hell didn't they shoot him.

[justineo]

I agree, bernardo, and what I thought was strange was the response from Muslim groups who condemned the killing and a man from the Muslim association of Britain who said "To give licence to people to shoot to kill just like that, on the basis of suspicion, is very frightening.  It is human lives that are being targetted here whether by terrorists or, in this case unfortunately, by people who are supposed to be chasing or catching the terrorists"  Is he criticising the police or saying that this is what happens when terrorists spread their fear and terror, it causes unfortunate accidents by those supposed to protect us?

[jno]

since the victim was a Brazilian electrician, he may not have understood what 'Stop or I'll shoot' meant. Maybe he didn't even hear. Having less than perfect hearing myself, I am deeply perturbed. The reason for suspicion seems not to have been his big coat, but just that he'd been to a house the police were watching. Perhaps he was mending a fuse? I can't see how this makes us all safer from terrorism. On the contrary, I'd have said it was more likely to encourage Brazilians to build bombs. Any way you cut it, this was another huge failure of police intelligence.

[extern76]

Agree with ludwig 100%,Stop now ! is very difficult not to understand.Why run?, Why jump over barriers ?Why head for a tube train ?, sorry but one innocent victim is better than a train full.

[acw]

As I read down the list I agreed with Bernardo and those offering a similar sentiment.  However, I was wonering of the factor of language, but figured that most people would understand what the police were getting at.  Then jno mentioned about deafness and I started to change my mind.  I agree that does make it very worrying - there may have been a good reason for not stopping.  But surely the guy realised what was going on!?  I'm off to London later today and will be carrying a few bags.  If any police start shouting at me I will just put my things down slowly and raise my hands.  I think that's just an international reaction to police screaming at you!

I think the police do need these rights, and to have the option to shoot to kill.  As people have said - if there HAD been a bomb we'd have been asking why not!? 

The only thing that really concerned me was the reports that there were FIVE shots.  Surely it would only take onen or two shots to stop him detonating any bomb!?  Or did 5 of them simultaneously shoot one bullet? 

I think this one should be put down as a tragic accident.  I feel this guy could be classed as an indirect victim of terrorism. 

[bobtheduck]

why did he have to be shot? they had him pinned down surely just handcuff him how he could he detonate a bomb will 3 great big hulking police officers sitting on him?

[luckyboy]

Apparently they were in plain clothes..might the poor guy had thought that they were not police but terrorists or gangsters?  anyway whatever way you look at this tragic incident its devastating for the guys family and friends, very sad!

[gemmabe]

I think it's so very tragic of course. But why did he run? Was he guilty of something? If I had armed police following me (especially considering the extra security surrounding recent events) I would surrender immediately... My heart goes out to his family and also to the police officer who shot him - I can only imagine the guilt he must be feeling. The police are serving to protect us and their actions were just in the circumstances - had the man been a suicide bomber we would be hailing the police as heroes - and the man's actions indicated he was.

[stevie21]

He lived in Brixton for 3 years and spoke excellent English (according to his cousin). No mention is made of hearing difficulties so maybe it's the fact that he's from a Brazillian slum where people pull guns on each other than prompted him to run from plain clothes officers pulling guns on him.

His own past may have led to him running in fear whereas I'd have been frozen to the spot. Given that he ran, I don't see that the police had much choice : they'd have been crucified if he wasn't shot and blew up another train.

[stevie21]

This is all on the assumption that he wasn't shot *after* being held down by 5 burly cops.

[MargeB]

was going to type that but stevie said it...Brazil life...you see a bunch of men running at you with guns, you run. Maybe not even that...maybe he did something like deal or take drugs, just panicked when he saw the cops. I have once had 7 men point AK47s at me, getting ready to shoot...all normal mental processes break down, you just assume you are going to die and try to avoid it at all costs.

The main question I guess centres over what went on in the tube train. 3 police officers on him....his big coat may have blocked police view of whether or not he had a belt bomb. Some witnesses say they thought they saw wires. I suspect police did the right thing.

Real mystery is why he ran. How can you live in London and not know about the terrorism...if the police see you and give chase with guns, you must know what they suspect you of. Maybe time for the police to make a statement to let everyone know that these situations may arise. Plenty of police chases with regular criminals may end differently now.

[luckyboy]

Whatever the circumstances its a tragedy for a totally innocent young guy to lose his life ...lets not forget that before we all assume things about the incident...

I'm all for the police in their fight against the terrorist scum, and realise as a ex soldier who has served in northern ireland myself how difficult it is in situations like this, but something disturbs me about this incident having listened to the eyewitness accounts, discipline is a required ingrediant of a policeman or a soldier, and it appears one individual lost his big time, which just gives the pc brigade ammunitation to fire at our entire security services...a great shame.

[Oneeyedvic]

Some points to mull over:

1) The police officers in question were all in plain clothes - if I saw 3 ordinary people chasing me with guns, I am not sure I would slowly get on the floor. The pictures in yesterdays papers showed clearly no identifying signs/caps on at least one of the policeman

2) To many brazilians, it is cold in London at this tim eof year (Brazil midday temperature currently 32 degrees celsius)

3) Most people when cornered they will go to the foetal position, not with arms prone

[gerry]

Due to the circumstances i would say it was the guys fault.When armed police tell you to stop you stop.The police acted in gut instinct

[jno]

reading the news stories today... He spoke good English, he didn't look Asian (though you might say he looked 'foreign', if that's a crime) - and the cops were plainclothes. That, I'm sure, is the key thing. Maybe you'd stop when armed police told you to do so. But I think if men not in uniform started waving guns around, my first instinct would be to get out of the way. You don't have to be Brazilian to do that, as MargeB acknowledges. How was he to know they were police? (They may have said so - but then, anyone can say that.)

I think it's time to stop blaming the victim here. He was an innocent man. He was shot because he was in a house cops were watching and they convinced themselves he was a terrorist - not only a terrorist but one who was about to blow himself up. They were wrong on all counts. He wasn't one of the men they were after, and didn't look remotely like any of them. It's not a crime to wear a coat, to visit a house, or to be afraid of men with guns.

We should all ask ourselves: suppose he'd been my father/husband/son. Would I be saying 'Jolly bad luck, but he died in the fight against terror to make all our lives safer'? Or would I be shocked and outraged that an innocent man could be shot - five times, in the back, while on the ground - by a trigger-happy plainclothes cop, because he'd been in the wrong place?

[jno]

crossed with oneeyedvic there; and obviously I agree with him.

[MargeB]

I see where you're coming from jno.

Some would argue that unless police are prepared to act as they did, then there is not a great deal of point in having them around our tube stations, armed to the teeth. A suicide bomber comes into a station, police suspect something (big heavy coat, for example), so they ask him to stop. He doesn't, he runs off. They give chase. He runs onto tube train. He gets on the ground. They are about to shoot him, but realise they are unsure of whether he is a terrorist or in fact someone who just "got scared". They issue a warning. He reaches into his shirt, pulls a wire, killing 30 people in the tube, himself, and 6 officers.

I want to live in a country where me, my family, or any of my friends will be shot in the head in this kind of situation. It's obviously not the ideal (BY A LONG WAY!), but if its the type of risk adaptation we need to take to bring the fight to these terrorist scum, so be it. The alternative is far far worse.