So he was wearing a denim jacket after all

[Dom Tuk]

The family says he was wearing a denim jacket and not a large coat. He also did not jump over the barrier but used his pass. So who is lying here??. And the armed gunmen (oops police) are on holiday paid for and okayed by the other Blair. The mind boggles.

[acw]

Why should the police be denied the right to paid holiday?  It sounds like you don't want them on the beat anyway so surely you should be pleased that they're not at work at the moment. 

They have a contractual right to that holiday - denying that would also be illegal. 

[Dom Tuk]

acw, i read on the BBC website that the concerned policemen and their families were sent away on holiday paid for by the Met...not your standard annual leave entitlement where you pay for the charter flight etc out of your salary/savings. I think it was signed for by the chief Blair as a special case.

[acw]

Probably trying to avoid the abuse they're getting for doing their jobs.  I agree that what they did was wrong.  But they simply made a mistake.  The threat was real and in this day and age I'm afraid I look at it like the economist I'm becoming.... it is worth one man's life if you save 100 others.  They thought there was a real threat to life, so they took action. 

I think they need a break after this - and deserve one.  They made a tough call and had a stressful time. 

It's just my opinion and I know you'll rip it to shreds as you always do with my views.  But there you have it - that's what I think. 

PS - On the lying front - well there are always two sides to every story.  I ask you though - who was there?  And what are the people involved's reasons for telling the story as they do?  I'd be tempted to twist the facts if I was defending my recently killed relative.  I'm not saying they did - I'm just saying I personally would be tempted.  And I don't think I'm the only one.  Still - I'm sure you'll rip me apart for that too.

[jno]

according to the family of Mr de Menezes, the Met has confirmed to them that he wasn't wearing a heavy coat after all. I shall be interested to hear the explanation for that one (and in particular how someone too shortsighted to tell a jeans jacket from an overcoat is allowed to use lethal weapons)... as I said on another thread, I think the real problem here is that the police just saw what they wanted to see, and that's no way to fight terrorism or anything else.

As for the holiday, do you get a week for each Brazilian you shoot? I sure hope that's not in their contracts acw!

[acw]

Touche jno!  I admit I thought were were just talking about paid leave.  I don't have a tv or radio and being on work experience has somewhat limited my chances to keep totally abreast of all the news. 

Whatever the ins and outs though - these guys were simply trying to do their job.  It's not like the sick sick soldiers who tortured prisoners in Iraq.  Even if they shot the wrong man, they're under so much pressure to do SOMETHING that they end up doing ANYTHING and sometimes get it wrong.  I know that a man's death is a hugely tragic consequence, but if he HAD had a bomb and HADN'T been shot, we'd all have been asking very different questions, whilst more families mourned the deaths of their loved ones. 

[BigDogsWang]

What I can't fathom from all of this is the amount of uproar and anger vented towards the British Police from the Brazilian people and their Government.

Talk about pot, kettle and black.

Coming from a country where daily shootings by it's Police and civilians is as common as breakfast, who are they to talk?

[acw]

I do agree.  I did read somewhere that the British police have often been invited to Brazil to teach their police.  I think they're upset that the country who was preaching such good work as failed so badly.  I can kinda take their point, but it was only one mistake.  Compared with their daily activities.... I agree with you bigdog!

[butter1]

I complete agree with ACW.  None of us has a cause to judge....we weren't there that day, so whether you read infomation in the paper of see it on a website you never know what's true or not.  Also, how would his relatives know he didn't jump the barrier....where they there?  No, so just because he had a travelcard doesn't mean that he wouldn't jump the barrier.  I am proud of our Police force and I think that it was just a sad case of mistaken identity.  I feel for the Police who are having to deal with this and I think that they should have a holiday... To go away until it dies down a bit for the sake of his family.  I think the Police are doing a great job and I 100% agree with everything they are doing.

[jno]

as I said in a previous post, the family claim the information that Mr de Menezes wasn't wearing a heavy coat, and used a tube pass, came from the Met themselves. But I'm happy to wait for this to be confirmed. Nonetheless, the questions it raises are important: it suggests he was behaving much less 'suspiciously' than earlier reports claimed - no rucksack, no heavy coat, apparently nowhere to hide a bomb at all.

[jno]

PS, BDW makes a fair point about the Brazilian police. But the Brazilian government has a right and a duty to represent the interests of its citizens abroad; and two wrongs don't make a right.

[Dom Tuk]

acw...i will accept your point that the officers cannot be really faulted for their actions. They were trying to protect the tube network and took a split second decision. They were given crap information by someone else and things went wrong from there. But as soon as tney shot him within a few seconds after killing him, they would have searched him to ensure that there is no bomb. Now after 30 secs of the killing they would have known that 1) he did not have any bombs strapped to him 2) he had no weapons 3) he was probably the wrong guy. So why then this malarkey for 48 hrs from the Met chief that...he was connected to the terror campaign, that he was wearing a large coat, that he jumped the barriers, that he was under surveillance etc. They knew within a few mins that he was innocent. So why the lies??

[jake-the-peg]

I think this all just confirms how you can't believe what you read in the papers or see reported right now.

It's perfectly right for them to be on paid leave right now though - presumption of innocence and all that.

The question is are the police going to reveal exactly the rules given to armed officers were? If they don't there's no way the investigation can be public and I can't see a behind closed doors being acceptable.

The fact that so many shots were fired into the head makes it clear that the rules and procedures had changed after the suicide attacks. We need to know what those new rules were and who approved them before we know if the individual officers were to blame.   

[smudge]

No one can imagine how the police marksman feels, after killing an innocent man in the line of duty.

After all said & done, it's such a shame the Police couldn't have used a stun gun in this instance. An innocent man would still be alive.

I cried when I read what had happened to this innocent man - I cried for his family.

Having said that - God knows what would have happened if he had been carrying a bomb. I would be crying even more - for all the victims families - the same as I did on the 7th July!

All will be revealed & hopefully lessons learned.

[BigDogsWang]

No, 'two wrongs' do not make a 'right'. But my point (as with acw) is this was a **** up. A mistake. An error of judgment. Call it what you like, but I certainly don't think the Police are proud of what they did. On Ross Kemps recent program about Gang culture in Brazil, the Police were seen dragging a young man from his car and shooting him in front of the TV cameras. That, is the epitome of Police brutality.

Shortly after it was declared he was innocent, a mass protest against the Police was organised outside Stockwell station.

Why were these people not protesting against Muslim Terrorists blowing up over 50 innocent commuters?

[smudge]

Well said BDW!

[smudge]

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question128057.html

Just a few additions.

[acw]

A lot of "news" is not new at all.  I'm sure there's a delay on a lot of things - whilst people try to get their stories straight.  These days ones career can end with one wrong word in a press statement.  I think therefore people try to stall matters while they word things more precisely. 

We will never know what is a lie and what isn't in this case (and many others), simply because we weren't there.  People have even lied under oath, so a court case won't even reveal the truth to 100% accuracy!

So, Dom Tuk, to reach my point in response to your most recent comments, I think that it's all in the name of management of information.  Something that, like it or not, has become vitally important these days!

[saxo_boi]

my view is that the police done the right thing. imagine if they saw hime jump over the barrier etc and just lethim run onto the tube. then imagine if he blew himself up and killedanother 60 people (or whatever) what would you all be saying then? why didnt they follow him and shoot him before he killed everyone. i agree totally with acw and i think the policemen who done this shouldnt be made to feel guilty, at the end of the day its our lives they were thinking of!

[mfewell]

This affair could go to a frightening limit of political correctness, the unfortunate officer locked up for murder, the two Blairs blamed for the bombings, an apology and doubled foreign aid to Brazil.

Blair (Sir Ian) made a superb point on C4 News. If you believe a man to be a suicide bomber and if you believe him to have explosives strapped on, just how much courage does it take to run towards him. All the rest of us would be top speed in the opposite direction.

I detect a new and steely determination in Tony Blair, Charles Clarke, Ian Blair, etc,  and I for my part am really glad it's there.

[chompu]

 Jake, the rules and procedures weren't changed after 7/7 they were already in place according to Lord Stevens the retired police commisioner who introduced them.