Still Think Prison Doesnt Work

[bazwillrun]

He seems to think it will

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/15/jeremy-hammond-anonymous-hacker-sentenced

perhaps if this country dished sentences like this it might act as more of a deterrent

[2sp_]

Sorry, www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

[anotheoldgit]

Zacs-Master

Entirely different circumstances.

[Zacs-Master]

No it's not. He's been convicted of murder. That is a fact, yet you advocate stricter sentences on this thread.

[Zeuhl]

The likes of baz and aog want leniency for criminals they have some empathy with; and severe punishments for people they don't have empathy with.

That isn't Law - it's corruption.

Thankfully, we raised our judicial system out of that particular sewer some years ago

[FredPuli43]

Murder and the death penalty is irrelevant. Murderers either don't think they'll be caught or they act regardless and unthinking of the consequences. And not all murderers intend to kill. Merely inflicting gbh with that intent, is enough; the accused may never have intended death.

Other criminals might, though it is unlikely. What they fear is being caught at all. If the chances are low, they commit the crime; the game is not worth the candle if they are caught every time.

[anotheoldgit]

FredPuli43

/// Murder and the death penalty is irrelevant.///

And you don't think that if we had the death penalty, those youngsters who now go out on our streets armed with knives, would still take the chance that they might get involved in a murder, if they knew they would be most likely hanged?

Prison is no fear for them, in fact it is classed as a medal of honour.

[sandyRoe]

Thoughts of self defence might be the reason young people carry weapons. I'm not sure, but think there'd be a fairly high 'clear up rate' for murder by stabbing in the UK. The prospect of a life sentence won't deter where people feel to go unarmed is too dangerous.

[FredPuli43]

Yes, AOG, I do. They run the risk of wounding with intent to cause grievous bodily harm and the victim dying, but they don't think like that and they are not mindful of either being caught or sent to jail, if it was the law, being hanged.

I have on my wall a photograph taken in 1953, of a crowd outside Pentonville prison, after a hanging. The condemned man was a Teddy boy, who had stabbed and killed a policeman who intervened to break up a fight. That man was not thinking of the consequences and neither do modern youths.

[Zeuhl]

/And you don't think.../

aog

we can pontificate, imagine and dream up all sorts of theories and hypotheses
(though I suspect your insight into the motivations of urban gang members is slight)

What we need is facts
Armchair policy makers can dream away, but that is what professionals base their decisions on.

From the data it appears that where capital punishment is withdrawn or reinstated there is minimal difference to the fatality rates due to the sort of behaviour you describe

If you want to reduce knife carrying, then focusing sentencing on that offence would seem more sensible than trying to influence the majority of knife carriers who don't expect to be caught using it to inflict fatal injuries

[jim360]

Generally speaking, people fear capture more than they do punishment. Lots of incidents over the years support this, really. Once there is little or no perceived risk of being caught many people seem happy to try their hand at crime. Examples including the 2011 August Riots (which was just opportunism for the most part), or the mass violation of parking rules in some villiage once it became known that the sole parking attendant was suspended for the day, and so on and on and on. Even, for that matter, what goes on daily on motorways, where virtually everyone breaks the 70mph limit until a police car shows up, when suddenly they all become law-abiding drivers. And, once the police disappear, speed up again.

Increasing the detection and capture rates is the best way to discourage crime. Harsher punishments don't matter much if there's little chance of them ever being enforced.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "And you don't think that if we had the death penalty, those youngsters who now go out on our streets armed with knives, would still take the chance that they might get involved in a murder, if they knew they would be most likely hanged?"

No - because as I have argued many times, the mentality of someone who goes out carrying a knife with the intention of using it on another person is not the mentality of someone given to long introspective thought processess about actions and consequences.

Ironically, this is a young man who can and indeed has thought about the consequences of his actions, and has still chosen to continue down his criminal path - and will accept the consequences of his actions.

The notion of comparing him with a neanderthal youth from a sink estate does not stand up in any way shape or form.

[FredPuli43]

You say "ironically" , andy, but it does appear that the marine thought that nothing would come of it, and it very nearly didn't. You only have to look at the evidence of how the tape and the crime came to light to see how true that is.

[andy-hughes]

On reflection Fred, that is an excellent point.

The marine in question is found out by equipment malfunction - the re-starting of a helmet recorder - and without that, the world would have remained ignorant of his crime.

There are those who would say that is a better scenario - I have to say i am not one of them.

[FredPuli43]

And even then,andy, it was pure chance that the recording was discovered on a computer