Am I Right To Be Feeling This Way?
Family Life15 mins ago
Scotland Yard Warned Yesterday That London Was Facing A “Disturbing” New Threat…
….. with jihadists as young as 16 travelling to take up arms in the Syrian conflict. Richard Walton, the head of counter-terrorism command, warned there were signs of returnees being ordered by militants associated with al-Qaeda to carry out attacks in Britain.
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Should the British public take this more seriously than it appears to at present?
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Should the British public take this more seriously than it appears to at present?
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naomi24
I'm not expert, but I don't think that's how extremists operate. Would they not be covert?
Also, I don't recall demands for Irish Catholics to March on London every time there was an IRA bomb on the mainland - and that went on for decades!
If I were Muslim, I absolutely would shop anyone who I believed was subverting the Koran as an excuse to maim and kill - because the victims of 7/7 were from all walks of life.
However, I would feel extremely aggrieved if someone told me that I should publicly denounce terrorism at every given opportunity.
Muslims are men and women and families - they are individuals, and what matters is that they raise their families peacefully, following the laws of this country.
I may be reading you wrong, but it seems that you're suggesting that individual Muslims...people I know and count as friends wrre somehow collectively culpable because they don't march on Downing Street after 7/7, the Glasgow Airport attack, the shoe bomber and the murder of Lee Rigby.
I suspect what's nearer the truth (talking with my mates after 7/7), is that terrorism is so 'beyond their boundaries', that they feel completely disassociated from it.
Same way that Anglicans don't feel in any way associated with the Westboro Baptist Church...
Rubbish example - but the best I could do at this late hour, and with eight presents left to wrap, twenty cards to write and last year's fairy lights still yet to be untangled...
I'm not expert, but I don't think that's how extremists operate. Would they not be covert?
Also, I don't recall demands for Irish Catholics to March on London every time there was an IRA bomb on the mainland - and that went on for decades!
If I were Muslim, I absolutely would shop anyone who I believed was subverting the Koran as an excuse to maim and kill - because the victims of 7/7 were from all walks of life.
However, I would feel extremely aggrieved if someone told me that I should publicly denounce terrorism at every given opportunity.
Muslims are men and women and families - they are individuals, and what matters is that they raise their families peacefully, following the laws of this country.
I may be reading you wrong, but it seems that you're suggesting that individual Muslims...people I know and count as friends wrre somehow collectively culpable because they don't march on Downing Street after 7/7, the Glasgow Airport attack, the shoe bomber and the murder of Lee Rigby.
I suspect what's nearer the truth (talking with my mates after 7/7), is that terrorism is so 'beyond their boundaries', that they feel completely disassociated from it.
Same way that Anglicans don't feel in any way associated with the Westboro Baptist Church...
Rubbish example - but the best I could do at this late hour, and with eight presents left to wrap, twenty cards to write and last year's fairy lights still yet to be untangled...
SP, But they are not covert, are they? Look at people like Anjem Choudary, ‘Hook’ Hamza, and all the other preachers of hate. Who do you think is radicalising young British Muslims? It is a great mistake to align Islamic fundamentalism with, say, the IRA because unlike radical Islam, the IRA don’t fight for causes other than the one political cause that affects their country. Islam is not simply a religion – it is far more than that. It is a universal brotherhood; it is a complete way of life, it dictates every aspect of life, and it is deemed beyond criticism - and that is what distinguishes it from Catholicism and from any other religion. You say ‘If I were a Muslim…’, but you have no idea what it means to be a Muslim and it’s a mistake to assume that you and they share similar ideological values. You don’t. As I said, this is a mindset like no other, and the sooner we, and those peaceful, law-abiding, Muslims who would like to disassociate themselves from the extremists, acknowledge that and determine to openly reject it the better. It is not enough for individual Muslims to pay lip service to what is right by saying they disagree with terrorism. They have to stand up and be counted – and until they do, nothing will change.
naomi24
But in order to disassociate themselves from radical Muslims, would not make you feel any different to individual Muslims that you know.
Also, yes - I have no idea what it feels like to be a Muslim, but by the same token, your post states that there's an international brotherhood...which is not true - as any Shia and Shi'ite might confirm.
I know Muslims who eat pork. I know those that completely cheat with Big Macs when they're supposed to be fasting.
You are 100% correct about Anjem Choudary. And I believe that anyone who promotes or encourages terrorism or extremism should be deported, full stop.
But what I was talking about are the radical extremists who are actually planning on doing something (eg. 7/7), act awhich is where I believe your original question relates to.
You posited 'Should the British public take this more seriously...?'
I'm not sure what else we can do to be honest.
But in order to disassociate themselves from radical Muslims, would not make you feel any different to individual Muslims that you know.
Also, yes - I have no idea what it feels like to be a Muslim, but by the same token, your post states that there's an international brotherhood...which is not true - as any Shia and Shi'ite might confirm.
I know Muslims who eat pork. I know those that completely cheat with Big Macs when they're supposed to be fasting.
You are 100% correct about Anjem Choudary. And I believe that anyone who promotes or encourages terrorism or extremism should be deported, full stop.
But what I was talking about are the radical extremists who are actually planning on doing something (eg. 7/7), act awhich is where I believe your original question relates to.
You posited 'Should the British public take this more seriously...?'
I'm not sure what else we can do to be honest.
naomi24
Another thing....when Muslims do hold a march and a public rally against extremist, the mainstream media completely ignore the event.
Did you knows about this in 2011?
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I reckon most people don't.
Another thing....when Muslims do hold a march and a public rally against extremist, the mainstream media completely ignore the event.
Did you knows about this in 2011?
http://
I reckon most people don't.
SP, That wasn’t a march, or a public rally. It was a conference and it was reported.
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We can’t deport Choudary – he’s British.
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We can’t deport Choudary – he’s British.
Conference, March or public rally - it was an event staged by muslims to refute and to disown violence carried out in the name of their religion.
I agree with you Naomi that within the muslim community their religion is far more interwoven in the warp and weft of their daily lives than their western christian and secular counterparts, but that does not to me mean that because a minority of those professing a muslim faith are intent on jihad and caliphates and sharia law and all of that, we should expect all muslims living their normal daily lives to wear a hairshirt and be in a state of permanent apology for those of their co-religionists who use the koran as a literal guide to justify their appalling terrorism.
I think SP makes a valid point.
I agree with you Naomi that within the muslim community their religion is far more interwoven in the warp and weft of their daily lives than their western christian and secular counterparts, but that does not to me mean that because a minority of those professing a muslim faith are intent on jihad and caliphates and sharia law and all of that, we should expect all muslims living their normal daily lives to wear a hairshirt and be in a state of permanent apology for those of their co-religionists who use the koran as a literal guide to justify their appalling terrorism.
I think SP makes a valid point.
LG, I suggested nothing of the sort. They’re your words – not mine. There are approximately 5 million Muslims in this country, and if they made their opposition to fundamentalist Islam clear, both audibly and visibly, it would demonstrate to the extremists that support for their ideology is negligible - and that would, I think, have a greater impact upon the radicals than anything any government or security agency can ever achieve. Without the perceived support, what hope for their cause?
@Naomi - Fair enough.So what public observances and utterances should the 5 million UK muslims do every day to disavow the terrorism carried out often in their name, to satisfy you that they really do not help to sanction/aid or secretly support the objectives of the terrorist minority within their ranks?
How do they "stand up and be counted", to use your words, rather than just pay "lip service"? I think it would be unfair of me, for instance, to just deride my muslim friend and colleagues expressed rejection of acts of terrorism carried out in the name of islam as simply "lip service" - nor would I expect him to attend marches and rallies to prove to me or society at large that he rejects terrorism. For him, as with most of his family and siblings, and many of his and his wifes friends, the muslim religion has become very similar in observance to your average christian over here - attendances at places of worship for hatched, matched and dispatched ceremonies, and that is pretty much it ;)
As I say, I think I side with SP on this one :)
How do they "stand up and be counted", to use your words, rather than just pay "lip service"? I think it would be unfair of me, for instance, to just deride my muslim friend and colleagues expressed rejection of acts of terrorism carried out in the name of islam as simply "lip service" - nor would I expect him to attend marches and rallies to prove to me or society at large that he rejects terrorism. For him, as with most of his family and siblings, and many of his and his wifes friends, the muslim religion has become very similar in observance to your average christian over here - attendances at places of worship for hatched, matched and dispatched ceremonies, and that is pretty much it ;)
As I say, I think I side with SP on this one :)
LG, several times in two posts you’ve implied that I’ve said things I haven’t. Who suggested that 5 million UK muslims do anything every day to disavow the terrorism carried out often in their name? Not me. And nothing I’ve said has been with the intention of satisfying myself personally, so I can’t imagine where you got that idea. I simply feel that strong and positive opposition from members of the Muslim community might reinforce the fact that the majority do not support terrorism and therefore may act as something of a deterrent to those who are potentially receptive to radicalisation – that’s all. Silly me for daring to suggest, if not a possible solution, at least an idea that could help combat terrorism in this country. I’m wondering who the perceived enemy is here.
SP, If it didn’t help, it certainly wouldn’t do any damage. Any opposition has to be a positive move.
SP, If it didn’t help, it certainly wouldn’t do any damage. Any opposition has to be a positive move.
@Naomi - I am using your words, is all.
This is what you said in one post;
"They’re your words – not mine. There are approximately 5 million Muslims in this country, and if they made their opposition to fundamentalist Islam clear, both audibly and visibly, it would demonstrate to the extremists that support for their ideology is negligible - and that would, I think, have a greater impact upon the radicals than anything any government or security agency can ever achieve. Without the perceived support, what hope for their cause"
And you said this in another post;
"They’re your words – not mine. There are approximately 5 million Muslims in this country, and if they made their opposition to fundamentalist Islam clear, both audibly and visibly, it would demonstrate to the extremists that support for their ideology is negligible - and that would, I think, have a greater impact upon the radicals than anything any government or security agency can ever achieve. Without the perceived support, what hope for their cause"
So, I am asking you - what kind of audible and visible opposition to this fundamentalism is required of these 5 million british muslims are you asking for that would persuade you that they are, in fact equally as horrified as yourself at these acts of terrorism in Islams name? Its you, in your words, that is calling for this - I am just curious as to what that would entail.
Your comment about "perceived enemy" sounds a tad defensive. Where have I misquoted you? I am seeking clarification is all.
This is what you said in one post;
"They’re your words – not mine. There are approximately 5 million Muslims in this country, and if they made their opposition to fundamentalist Islam clear, both audibly and visibly, it would demonstrate to the extremists that support for their ideology is negligible - and that would, I think, have a greater impact upon the radicals than anything any government or security agency can ever achieve. Without the perceived support, what hope for their cause"
And you said this in another post;
"They’re your words – not mine. There are approximately 5 million Muslims in this country, and if they made their opposition to fundamentalist Islam clear, both audibly and visibly, it would demonstrate to the extremists that support for their ideology is negligible - and that would, I think, have a greater impact upon the radicals than anything any government or security agency can ever achieve. Without the perceived support, what hope for their cause"
So, I am asking you - what kind of audible and visible opposition to this fundamentalism is required of these 5 million british muslims are you asking for that would persuade you that they are, in fact equally as horrified as yourself at these acts of terrorism in Islams name? Its you, in your words, that is calling for this - I am just curious as to what that would entail.
Your comment about "perceived enemy" sounds a tad defensive. Where have I misquoted you? I am seeking clarification is all.
totally agree with Naomi's post of yesterday 22.43?
if people want to protest about having their religion hijacked by extremists then why on earth don't they say so openly and clearly, after all Christianity is still having to explain itself at ever turn, level, in this country, though i don't believe in any religion, i reckon that Christians get a far far worse press than the Islamic proponents in this country.
if people want to protest about having their religion hijacked by extremists then why on earth don't they say so openly and clearly, after all Christianity is still having to explain itself at ever turn, level, in this country, though i don't believe in any religion, i reckon that Christians get a far far worse press than the Islamic proponents in this country.
sandy the wider public is you and me, and i was far nearer than sp when one bloody bomb went up in London, not far away at all, believe me when you saw the wreckage of that bus and the debris, you wouldn't forget it in a hurry. Should we await another, if so who next, it's always the innocents who are murdered and they could be you, me, our family, friends.
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