http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2518498/UKs-survival-rates-worse-European-average-9-10-cancers.html

[brionon]

This can't be true can it ? Where is UKIP when you need 'em ?

[LazyGun]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2518498/UKs-survival-rates-worse-European-average-9-10-cancers.html

[LazyGun]

Reposted, because I cannot click on the link in your title, brionon :)

[LazyGun]

Not quite sure how UKip are going to solve the problem, brionon.

There is definitely an issue, no question. Part of that was a lack of regional centres and networks of excellence - too many hospitals and too many consultants all treating too few patients. That has changed, but slowly, in part because the public often see a re-organisation of services within their local hospital as a threat, so politicians and the NHS are not driving through the necessary changes fast enough.

Nor do those figures reflect the changes in clinical practice implemented during the early 2000s - too early for that, as yet, but we can see encouraging upward trends in survival rates and Time to Treat etc.

And as ever, there is the problem of initial diagnosis- still far too often it is far too late in this country compared to others within Europe, for example, for reasons not entirely clear - many Brits are very reluctant to see their GPs about what might seem to be minor chronic ailments, which could in fact be early symptoms of a cancer.

So I think the DM are being unnecessarily gloomy with this article.

[Khandro]

The lady looking at the x-ray (or is it a plan for a stained-glass window?) may not be in Britain. A friend of mine (RIP), had to wait several days for the results of is x-rays and discovered the reason was, for economy they were being processed in Poland.

[mikey4444]

Not sure what this has to do with UKIP either !

[LazyGun]

"A friend of mine (RIP), had to wait several days for the results of is x-rays and discovered the reason was, for economy they were being processed in Poland."

A friend of yours based and being treated in the UK, Khandro? Privately or via the NHS?

Cannot say I have ever heard of such a practice,and am very surprised if that is the case...

[Sqad]

Yes, these figures are disturbing and are slowly....very slowly...improving.
These statistics on survival rates for cancer are NOT new as this has been the picture for the past 25 years.

Yes the causes are multifactorial.....but......the NHS is fronted by an underperforming, much heralded and pampered Primary Care Doctors (GP's).

Off to my Club now....a bit late.

[boxtops]

what's this got to do with UKIP?

And yes, I do believe lots is processed outside the UK - it's cheaper - there was a story quite a while ago about medical dictation being sent to India to process. The NHS is skint, it has to save money where it can.

We'll all heard about healthcare being better in countries like Spain. I'm shocked but not surprised.

[LazyGun]

I would be very interested in any links or independent verification that lots of xrays of NHS patients are being outsourced outside the UK for screening.Could you offer names of specific hospitals where this is being done, for instance?

[Khandro]

LG; It was the UK, - in the environs of Chippenham, Wilts.

[LazyGun]

@ Khandro Ta. Sounds like treatment @ Royal United Hospital in Bath, maybe treatment out in Bristol then? Have to make some enquiries amongst colleagues working down there. I am surprised that they are outsourcing xrays to Poland...

[jake-the-peg]

Not only that I'm told that almost half our doctors are below average too!

Think about it ! ;c)

Actually if you look a bit more carefully you'll see the Breast Cancer figure is pretty much bang on the european average

Colon cancer is well down though but it is a complex issue - you have to look at how late people report symptoms.

In some countries there is more of a tendency not to go to the doctors until it's a problem - I think the UK and bowell cancer is a particular example.

[youngmafbog]

It would be really interesting to see someone understand why this is (laying politics aside and seeing the real cause as all parties have been in power whilst this has gone on).

Just issuing a survey is not really that useful.

[LazyGun]

It seems teleradiology and outsourcing such interpretations is far more widespread that I was aware. Not only here either - Something done increasingly in places like the US as well. Uneasy about the concept, but in principle provided you have measures in place that guarantee the quality of the screeners, I have less of an issue with it now ;)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130104143656.htm

[LazyGun]

@YMB No question that the way cancer care was organised within the NHS did allow for sub-optimal treatments, up until relatively recently - late 90s, early 2000s. Reorganisation to provide regional centres and networks of excellence has helped drive up survival rates, coupled with advances in the understanding of different cancers and what the most effective form of treatment is.

I think jake has touched on it - there does appear to be a reticence amongst the british public about seeing their GPs over issues like bowel/prostate examinations, for instance, and late diagnosis is the number 1 criteria for poor survival rates.

[ummmm]

I used to book-keep for a company that sent NHS patients abroad to have replacement surgery (hip replacements, knee replacements)

[Sqad]

JTP

\\\Actually if you look a bit more carefully you'll see the Breast Cancer figure is pretty much bang on the european average

Colon cancer is well down though but it is a complex issue - you have to look at how late people report symptoms. \\\

Same old arguments but dependent upon sticking one's head in the sand.

\\\\\In some countries there is more of a tendency not to go to the doctors until it's a problem - I think the UK and bowell cancer is a particular example.\\\

I can't see why that should be .....are we more fastidious concerning bodily functions in the UK?

NHS is GP orchestrated more than any other country and delay in referral, for many reasons is delayed. In other countries GP's play a more subsidiary role and function more as a "filter" ensuring earlier and quicker specialist referral.

This has to change, the NHS MUST divert money from Primary Care to hospital finances............but how?....the GP's have in 2004 been given MORE money for LESS work and they will not give that up.

There are pluses in State Medicine but the big negative is that with the doctor's noses well and truly in the "trough" nothing will change as they have the government of the time, over a barrel.

[Khandro]

LG; //.... provided you have measures in place that guarantee the quality of the screeners, I have less of an issue with it now ;)
I don't think the quality of the results are in question, it's that outsourcing can cause days of delay. Here in Germany every GP has his/her own x-ray equipment and laboratory facilities on site. In agreement with Squad (below) the whole NHS system is collapsing under the strain. Another friend in the Midlands was recently prepared for a biopsy for brain tumour 5 times before it was finally carried out.
When Gordon Brown gave a massive financial injection into the NHS, the bloody doctors not only grabbed the lot, they also reduced their hours of attendance for good measure.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[LazyGun]

@ Khandro If teleradiology and outsourcing such activities is causing a delay - in treatment, in diagnosis, whatever -then I would agree with you that this could present a problem. Only having become aware of the extent of the outsourcing today though, I have no evidence on this, one way or the other ;) I am going to talk to some radiology ex-colleagues this weekend, so it will be interesting to get their perspective.

There is an argument to be had over the role of GPs/ Primary Care etc, but I do not see that each GP having their own xray facilities or pathology lab functionality will necessarily improve care and treatment of patients.

And I do think that for some issues, British patients have been noticeably more reticent than their european or american counterparts in coming forward to have a check-up/ screen. This is oh so slowly changing. I do not think that recognising this as an important contributor to the overall performance is "sticking ones head in the sand".

[jake-the-peg]

Sqad - they're not the 'same old arguments'

They are the proper analysis of data - rather than seizing on anything that comes your way to highlight your own particular hobby-horse

For example those who highlight the 'wonderful' American statistics are almost invariably looking at outcome for people who get treatment

Those who cannot afford it and don't have the insurance often don't even make it into the statistics!

That's why the wonderful private system in the US ends up with a childhood mortality rate higher than Cuba!

Still at least the doctors get rich and retire to sunny climes eh?