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Help, Please Re The Mail
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Is there something irrelevant in that Daily Mail report ? What ,if anything is it, and why is it there?
Is there something irrelevant in that Daily Mail report ? What ,if anything is it, and why is it there?
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morning I just joined to get some help on another matter but thought i'd have a mosey around.......
not sure exactly why this post caught my eye but nevertheless, i am here
totally unbelievable , a young person has been killed and people are arguing over petty irelevancies and trying to score points off each other
what difference does his background make or how much money he or his family have.
Why didnt he take a taxi ? please is that a serious question....its totally irelevant
if this is the general level of "conversation" I'm not so sure I can be bothered with this particular board
not sure exactly why this post caught my eye but nevertheless, i am here
totally unbelievable , a young person has been killed and people are arguing over petty irelevancies and trying to score points off each other
what difference does his background make or how much money he or his family have.
Why didnt he take a taxi ? please is that a serious question....its totally irelevant
if this is the general level of "conversation" I'm not so sure I can be bothered with this particular board
[i]Had he been a student at the local comprehensive, I’ve no doubt that would have been mentioned.[i]
Naomi, have you ever seen a headline in the Mail (or anywhere else) beginning "Comprehensive school boy, 17, died..."? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd welcome a link.
FredPuli, I was half-expecting an ambiguous statement that he was run over bya black cab driver, but it was not to be.
Naomi, have you ever seen a headline in the Mail (or anywhere else) beginning "Comprehensive school boy, 17, died..."? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd welcome a link.
FredPuli, I was half-expecting an ambiguous statement that he was run over bya black cab driver, but it was not to be.
When I first read this report I thought it was odd and that there was something missing from the story. When you realise this was a suicide, all the seemingly irrelevent details make sense. If you read it as gifted popular student takes his own life, then it is a better story than just a report of a road accident which is how it at first appears.
I am guessing that until a coroner says it is suicide, the paper cannot report that. So we are presented with a story that doesn't make much sense on first reading.
Poor lad. Poor taxi driver.
I am guessing that until a coroner says it is suicide, the paper cannot report that. So we are presented with a story that doesn't make much sense on first reading.
Poor lad. Poor taxi driver.
Is it not the fact that someone was walking on a dual carriageway at night that made the witness call the police, not the fact that there was any suggestion of suicide? It's dangerous to do it in broad daylight, let alone in the middle of the night. If he had been to a party, his judgement was no doubt impaired and in my opinion it was not suicide but a tragic accident.
jno
/// human_form, this is a thread about newsper bias, not about death. The content of the story does not preclude discussion about the reporting of it. ///
Or perhaps other bias it seems?
/// FredPuli, I was half-expecting an ambiguous statement that he was run over bya black cab driver, but it was not to be. ///
/// human_form, this is a thread about newsper bias, not about death. The content of the story does not preclude discussion about the reporting of it. ///
Or perhaps other bias it seems?
/// FredPuli, I was half-expecting an ambiguous statement that he was run over bya black cab driver, but it was not to be. ///
AOG, gladdening that you didn't need bait from me [alternative headlines "Benefit claimant/ Muslim" etc [ to drag race into a story which doesn't mention race or religion and has nothing to do with either. .
It's the Daily Mail that brings social class into the story, if anyone does, prompting my enquiry why the victim's school or school fees were mentioned prominently in the paper. It's not my obsession, you may feel, but theirs, just as race or religion is not my obsession but yours, as people may judge from posts on AB.
If you associate me with the left, you either haven't read my responses when you have raised this before, or you haven't accepted them, or you think a paid-up member of the Tory party, who has campaigned for his own wife when she was the Party's candidate in a general election, is of the left.
The fact that someone disagrees with you and hopes to out point where you are mistaken, does not make of them of the left, whether the topic is Muslims or stabbings by or of black people or anything else
It's the Daily Mail that brings social class into the story, if anyone does, prompting my enquiry why the victim's school or school fees were mentioned prominently in the paper. It's not my obsession, you may feel, but theirs, just as race or religion is not my obsession but yours, as people may judge from posts on AB.
If you associate me with the left, you either haven't read my responses when you have raised this before, or you haven't accepted them, or you think a paid-up member of the Tory party, who has campaigned for his own wife when she was the Party's candidate in a general election, is of the left.
The fact that someone disagrees with you and hopes to out point where you are mistaken, does not make of them of the left, whether the topic is Muslims or stabbings by or of black people or anything else
Most newspapers of all persuasions slant their stories towards their readership. It’s what they do. The Mail’s target readership is mainly white, middle class, middle income, middle aged. The way they told this particular story is the way they think it will appeal to that audience. The Sun, The Mirror and the Guardian all do the same in different ways. You buys the paper of your choice and not the ones you don't fancy.
However, one thing among the comments (from Hypognosis) interested me, and AOG has already alluded to it:
“…a privileged background (Air Cadets, Venture Scouts, scuba diving…”
It really sums up why there is a social divide in the UK. I was a Wolf Cub (a sixer) a Boy Scout (a patrol leader), a member of the Air Training Corps (a flight sergeant) and took part in many activities associated with those organisations (camping, gliding, rifle shooting, orienteering, air experience flying in all manner of aircraft). There was nothing remotely “privileged” about my background. My father was a painter and decorator, my mother a wages clerk. But these activities were a part of the lives of many youngsters. We were encouraged to take part by our parents and the benefits we gained from them were enormous.
Today, it seems, only “posh” parents encourage their children towards these activities and this gives the impression that they are only for the privileged. But they are still available to all and do not cost very much. It’s the attitude of today’s youngsters (no doubt heavily steered by their parents) that has changed. Being a Scout, a Guide or an air cadet, with its associated discipline is not “cool”. That’s why so few youngsters take part. It’s nothing to do with privilege but all to do with attitude.
However, one thing among the comments (from Hypognosis) interested me, and AOG has already alluded to it:
“…a privileged background (Air Cadets, Venture Scouts, scuba diving…”
It really sums up why there is a social divide in the UK. I was a Wolf Cub (a sixer) a Boy Scout (a patrol leader), a member of the Air Training Corps (a flight sergeant) and took part in many activities associated with those organisations (camping, gliding, rifle shooting, orienteering, air experience flying in all manner of aircraft). There was nothing remotely “privileged” about my background. My father was a painter and decorator, my mother a wages clerk. But these activities were a part of the lives of many youngsters. We were encouraged to take part by our parents and the benefits we gained from them were enormous.
Today, it seems, only “posh” parents encourage their children towards these activities and this gives the impression that they are only for the privileged. But they are still available to all and do not cost very much. It’s the attitude of today’s youngsters (no doubt heavily steered by their parents) that has changed. Being a Scout, a Guide or an air cadet, with its associated discipline is not “cool”. That’s why so few youngsters take part. It’s nothing to do with privilege but all to do with attitude.
It really sums up why there is a social divide in the UK
It may well sum up the social divide - but not *why* there is one.
I wouldn't actually bet that the things mentioned are typical of Mail readers at all - more likely Guardian or Telegraph, I suspect. Which suggests that the story is not actually about a member of its target audience but is being presented as an awful warning about what happens to people who read big newspapers and send their kids to private school and Venture Scouts.
It may well sum up the social divide - but not *why* there is one.
I wouldn't actually bet that the things mentioned are typical of Mail readers at all - more likely Guardian or Telegraph, I suspect. Which suggests that the story is not actually about a member of its target audience but is being presented as an awful warning about what happens to people who read big newspapers and send their kids to private school and Venture Scouts.
The only puzzle about the article is the level of coverage and remarkable detail that the report goes into, in a national newspaper. Tragic though this case might be - a life terminated early - the accidental death of a teenager would normally merit only a paragraph, if that, in a national newspaper surely, rather than a full page spread with accompanying photograph?
And of course there is the Mails propensity to attach a value to everything - presumably as some kind of shorthand message to its readership as to the social standing of the subject of the article - is it really germane to the story to detail the amount of the fees paid to the private school, for instance?
And of course there is the Mails propensity to attach a value to everything - presumably as some kind of shorthand message to its readership as to the social standing of the subject of the article - is it really germane to the story to detail the amount of the fees paid to the private school, for instance?
Dunno what happened there. I think I used another set of double arrow marks to close the quote of your post and this caused everything I typed in reply to be stripped out. Not sure if I can get the exact wording again as the thread has progressed, which affects my thinking but here goes..
---
I should apologise as I think I strayed into sarcasm with that final comment. All the same, you have to wonder how someone so accomplished, well-liked, over-achieving and - dare I say - 'precious' can be allowed to wander off, late at night, on their own, half-cut (or intoxicated on certain other substances) to the extend of staggering into the road while __walking__ home.
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In response to more recent posts, perhaps I went up a blind alley with the Cadets/Scouts angle. I wasn't allowed to participate in such things at that age because - I was told - "It's too expensive". That may have been a white lie but I fell for it and the image of these things being for the privileged has stayed with me. That is evidently my problem, not any of yours.
By the way, naomi, 17 grand's worth of what I shall refer to as discretionary spending aka "disposable income", is what counts as 'rich' in my book. It also shouts out that State Education is regarded as inferior and we can't help having a two-tier society, thanks to the differences in upbringing the State and Private kids will, inevitably, experience. If I am disrespectful, do you have to wonder why?
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I should apologise as I think I strayed into sarcasm with that final comment. All the same, you have to wonder how someone so accomplished, well-liked, over-achieving and - dare I say - 'precious' can be allowed to wander off, late at night, on their own, half-cut (or intoxicated on certain other substances) to the extend of staggering into the road while __walking__ home.
---
In response to more recent posts, perhaps I went up a blind alley with the Cadets/Scouts angle. I wasn't allowed to participate in such things at that age because - I was told - "It's too expensive". That may have been a white lie but I fell for it and the image of these things being for the privileged has stayed with me. That is evidently my problem, not any of yours.
By the way, naomi, 17 grand's worth of what I shall refer to as discretionary spending aka "disposable income", is what counts as 'rich' in my book. It also shouts out that State Education is regarded as inferior and we can't help having a two-tier society, thanks to the differences in upbringing the State and Private kids will, inevitably, experience. If I am disrespectful, do you have to wonder why?
Yes it was a white lie you were sold, Hypo. Current “subs” to belong to an ATC Squadron are about £2 per month. More details here:
https:/
When I was a member, far from being discouraged by my parents (for any reason) I was actively encouraged to pursue as many activities as I wanted to. Since then I have noticed a substantial change in the attitude of many parents towards such associations and many are told “that’s not for you - it’s only for rich (or “posh”) people’s kids”. Once again it’s attitude, not cost and I think that probably answers jno’s question as to why there is such a divide. Just to go back to your experience, the reasons behind you being given incorrect information are unknown. It may be simply be lack of knowledge on the part of those who told you. But it does not take much for such disinformation to become widespread if nobody takes the trouble to find out the facts. Some parents do, others don't and there's the difference.
As far as education goes, as has been mentioned, many parents who pay to have their children educated are by no means rich. They often make huge sacrifices to ensure their children have the best education possible. Of course it is not possible for those on the very lowest incomes, but private education is by no means the sole preserve of the “rich”. The sad thing is that so many people find it necessary to pay for education. There are many reasons for this far too numerous to go into here, and I’ve already strayed too far from Fred’s original question. But suffice it to say that State education is inferior in may areas, hence parents’ necessity to pay for something better.
https:/
When I was a member, far from being discouraged by my parents (for any reason) I was actively encouraged to pursue as many activities as I wanted to. Since then I have noticed a substantial change in the attitude of many parents towards such associations and many are told “that’s not for you - it’s only for rich (or “posh”) people’s kids”. Once again it’s attitude, not cost and I think that probably answers jno’s question as to why there is such a divide. Just to go back to your experience, the reasons behind you being given incorrect information are unknown. It may be simply be lack of knowledge on the part of those who told you. But it does not take much for such disinformation to become widespread if nobody takes the trouble to find out the facts. Some parents do, others don't and there's the difference.
As far as education goes, as has been mentioned, many parents who pay to have their children educated are by no means rich. They often make huge sacrifices to ensure their children have the best education possible. Of course it is not possible for those on the very lowest incomes, but private education is by no means the sole preserve of the “rich”. The sad thing is that so many people find it necessary to pay for education. There are many reasons for this far too numerous to go into here, and I’ve already strayed too far from Fred’s original question. But suffice it to say that State education is inferior in may areas, hence parents’ necessity to pay for something better.
Hypognosis, I didn’t say you were disrespectful – I defended you against that accusation. Yes, £17,000 a year is a lot of money, but most people who send their children to private school do not regard it as ‘disposable income’ – it’s a good chunk of what they see as their living expenses. Many parents – mums and dads - work all the hours available to them in order to pay it, they often voluntarily forego life’s ‘luxuries’, and it may surprise you to learn that in order to help the parents who are struggling to pay the fees many private schools organise sales of second-hand uniforms and equipment. Private schools do offer a better start in life – as do grammar schools – and I don’t criticise anyone for doing the best they can for their children.
//you have to wonder how someone so accomplished, well-liked, over-achieving and - dare I say - 'precious' can be allowed to wander off, late at night, on their own, half-cut (or intoxicated on certain other substances) to the extend of staggering into the road while __walking__ home.//
That’s not entirely fair – and actually it smacks of sour grapes. The fact that this boy was a student at a private school doesn’t make him any more ‘precious’ than any other boy - but you didn’t have it so no one else should, is that it?
//you have to wonder how someone so accomplished, well-liked, over-achieving and - dare I say - 'precious' can be allowed to wander off, late at night, on their own, half-cut (or intoxicated on certain other substances) to the extend of staggering into the road while __walking__ home.//
That’s not entirely fair – and actually it smacks of sour grapes. The fact that this boy was a student at a private school doesn’t make him any more ‘precious’ than any other boy - but you didn’t have it so no one else should, is that it?
as you said likely that he wasn't from some privileged background, and many parents do make enormous sacrifices for their children, unpaid taxi driver, money lender, tyer up of shoelaces and so forth, another life lost, it's a terrible waste, but does anyone know what he was doing there.
poor parents to lose a child no matter the age.
poor parents to lose a child no matter the age.
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