Is This Yet Another Story We Should Not Have Been Made Aware Of By The Daily Mail?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2557796/British-Muslim-wife-admit-posting-videos-mocking-horrific-killing-Lee-Rigby-YouTube.html

If one's utter disgust at these two worthless pieces of garbage makes some call a person an Islamaphobe, then so be it.

[andy-hughes]

emmie - "Is it their choice, if so why, i was in and around Stratford the other day and quite frankly its appalling, never in my life would i expect women of any hue, race, religion to look this way, i am utterly dismayed by it,"

It is their choice - a cultural option that some women like to take up.

Why are you dismayed by it?

I appreciate it looks very strange to our western eyes, but 'strange' is not always to be aligned with 'wrong'.

[emmie]

i was watching an item on Al Jazeera the other day, about a young girl born and brought up in Gaza, she seemed a nice girl, but one where by and large her future is already mapped out, she wants to become an architect, laudable, whilst her family want her to study medicine, equally valid, but the thing that got me was how she was now told to dress, she doesn't want to wear the niqab though she covers herself from head to toe as that is what her culture, religion tells her to do. She had her sixteenth birthday and the family held a party, where the women all wore burkha and veil, whilst the men folk sat around and discussed what the girl can do and wear, they rule the roost, wear western style dress and seem to do as they please. Not sure why i continued to watch, i felt pity for the restrictions, control on the women, it seems no one woman escapes this.

[emmie]

i am appalled, and dismayed, this is a modern country, we have thrown off the shackles of male oppression by and large, and i can only see that if they defy their culture, religion , they will be ostracised and condemned to a life of solitude away from their families, totally brainwashed. You find this strange that any woman would feel the way i do, why.

[emmie]

because every part of the capital has large pockets of areas where it is totally Asian led, and majority Muslim, and quite honestly if you saw the majority of British women walking down the road wearing Roman togas wouldn't you find it odd. I don't want to sit on a bus, or be in a public place where all you can see of the women is their eyes and sometimes not even then, this is completely alien to me. Those who live in the sticks don't know what the capital is like, some who visit on the odd occasion will perhaps only see the tourist sights, but this is not our culture, our way of life, and all i see around me now, is women dressed this way,
if it's their choice, then why not live in a country that has this mode of dress, and cultural values, i find it distasteful to see women either subjected to wearing burkha and veil, or have them make that choice themselves, of course you would defend it, so do some on AB, their choice is what you say, of course, doesn't make it nice, right or good for Britain.

[emmie]

and being labelled an Islamaphobe as some on here do, well i guess that is their choice, but it's not one i subscribe to.

[naomi24]

//It is their choice - a cultural option that some women like to take up. //

^^ that is naïve and it’s a good example of what I meant when I talked about westerners assuming the faithful possess a similar mind-set to their own. When women are allowed a choice in the matter, they choose the burka because they think their religion requires it, or they choose it as a political symbol, which it what it has become. The rest of the time they have no choice - they do as they’re told – and that on-going oppression is what well-meaning apologists are inadvertently supporting.

[emmie]

and it has become much more prominent on British streets, if you walk down many roads in the capital, and it doesn't have to be the East End of London, you will see more women wear the Burkha and are veiled. This will never be something i understand. And i am pretty well travelled, have visited any number of countries, where women wore the Burkha, and i thought it strange then, even more so here.

[emmie]

this is the norm in many places here
http://www.realworldimage.com/people/muslim-woman-burka-glasses.html

[naomi24]

Emmie, it's political. I often think the burka is more in evidence in London than it is in some eastern cities where one would more expect to see it.

[andy-hughes]

naomi - "//It is their choice - a cultural option that some women like to take up. //

^^ that is naïve and it’s a good example of what I meant when I talked about westerners assuming the faithful possess a similar mind-set to their own."

Do you have any evidence for the sweeping statements you are bringing to this thread?

[naomi24]

Andy, I can't see how that's a 'sweeping statement'. You are assuming that these people possess a similar mind-set to your own - aren't you?

[anotheoldgit]

Whether we agree with them or not, we have CCTV cameras all around, why should some be allowed to remain anonymous from their scrutiny, I wonder what the authorities thoughts would be if most chose to wear balaclavas covering their faces?

[andy-hughes]

naomi - "Andy, I can't see how that's a 'sweeping statement'. You are assuming that these people possess a similar mind-set to your own - aren't you?"

No I'm not, and ironically, it appears to be you who is doing the assuming, rather than me!

I am not naiive enough to imagine that a culture that, in a lot of its attitudes and customs, is still in the twelfth century, thinks the same as I do in most ways.

What I do think, is that, in the same way that we are brought up with our belief and cultural systems, so are Muslim women.

What is naiive, is to assume that because, to our Western eyes, Muslim women appear miserable and oppressed, and definitely in need of some good ole Westernisin' - that they think and feel that way.

It is an arrogant stance taken by the West that everyone should regard our freedoms as something they both need and want, when we have no definitive proof that this is the case.

So in fact, my position is the opposite to the one you assume I am taking - I don;t think that because we see Muslim women as oppressed, it follows that they see themselves in the same way.

There is almost a daily outcry in this section that Muslims are 'trying to take over' our culture and society - whereas it appears to be us who are trying to make them see our stance as the only correct way to live.

[sp1814]

AOG

"Whether we agree with them or not, we have CCTV cameras all around, why should some be allowed to remain anonymous from their scrutiny, I wonder what the authorities thoughts would be if most chose to wear balaclavas covering their faces?"

I would assume that authorities would have the same position on balaclavas as they do with hoodies.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

So you have no problem of them carrying on with their 12th century attitudes and customs, now they have chosen to live in a 21st century country?

Maybe you are also in favour of them carrying out female mutilation, perhaps we do not have a right to interfere with that custom also?

/// It is an arrogant stance taken by the West that everyone should regard our freedoms as something they both need and want, when we have no definitive proof that this is the case. ///

If it is Western arrogance to believe that women have equal rights to men, then you can call us arrogant for believing this.

/// There is almost a daily outcry in this section that Muslims are 'trying to take over' our culture and society - whereas it appears to be us who are trying to make them see our stance as the only correct way to live. ///

Perhaps we should not interfere then Andy, perhaps we should allow them to introduce complete Shia law into this country?

Our culture and society in some ways may not be completely the right way to live, but compared with the culture of some it is far better, especially in a predominate Christian country.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "Maybe you are also in favour of them carrying out female mutilation, perhaps we do not have a right to interfere with that custom also?"

That is an absolutely appalling thing to say, and I am thoroughly disgusted with you for suggesting that I would think such a thing.

I demand an immediate apology - failure to do so will result in a report to the Editor.

[anotheoldgit]

andy-hughes

/// AOG - "Maybe you are also in favour of them carrying out female mutilation, perhaps we do not have a right to interfere with that custom also?" ///

I was simply using that as a comparison since you had previously stated that we are somehow wrong to interfere with their culture or customs, or words to that effect.

But if you feel that I have insulted you, then I apologise sincerely, but please in the future, be careful how you defend their culture and customs while they reside in this country

Another piece of advise Andy please don't demand and threaten a fellow ABer with reporting them to the ED, if they do not apologise to you.

[andy-hughes]

AOG - "/// AOG - "Maybe you are also in favour of them carrying out female mutilation, perhaps we do not have a right to interfere with that custom also?" ///

I was simply using that as a comparison since you had previously stated that we are somehow wrong to interfere with their culture or customs, or words to that effect."

That is a mealy-mouthed excuse for a deeply offensive observation and is utterly groundless. I may feel that western interference in customs is wrong, to to deduce from that observation that I condone such brutality is utterly shameful.

"But if you feel that I have insulted you, then I apologise sincerely, but please in the future, be careful how you defend their culture and customs while they reside in this country"

I do feel you have insluted me, and I do not accept your apology, since you added advice that I "be careful how I defend their culture and customs while they reside in this country.

It is not for you to dictate what I defend on the site, or how i defend it - your arrogance knows no bounds - as you obviously think that people who 'reside in this country' should not be defended by a person from this country.

"Another piece of advise Andy please don't demand and threaten a fellow ABer with reporting them to the ED, if they do not apologise to you."

Advice ignored AOG - I have already reported you for your deeply hurtful comment which goes well beyond the realms of debate, and is a sickeningly unpleasant thing to say about anyone - even by your standards, and that is certainly saying something.

I shall decline to debate with you any further on this site - you are a reprehensible individual and I wish nothing more to do with you or your obnoxious views.

[naomi24]

Andy, I’m assuming nothing except that you believe what you’ve written. However, since the discussion appears to have descended into puerility, I’ll leave my input at that.